ML22292A263
| ML22292A263 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 09/22/2022 |
| From: | Marlayna Vaaler Doell Reactor Decommissioning Branch |
| To: | |
| Doell M, 301-415-3178 | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML22292A260 | List: |
| References | |
| NRC-2079 | |
| Download: ML22292A263 (97) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Public Meeting on the Palisades Nuclear Plant Post-Shutdown Decommissioning Activities Report Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
South Haven, Michigan Date:
Thursday, September 22, 2022 Work Order No.:
NRC-2079 Pages 1-97 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1716 14th Street, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20009 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
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3 PUBLIC MEETING ON THE PALISADES NUCLEAR PLANT POST-4 SHUTDOWN DECOMMISSIONING ACTIVITIES REPORT 5
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6 THURSDAY 7
SEPTEMBER 22, 2022 8
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9 The public meeting convened at Lake 10 Michigan College, 125 Veterans Boulevard, South 11 Haven, Michigan, and via Videoconference, at 6:00 12 p.m. EDT, Sarah Lopas, Facilitator, presiding.
13 PRESENT 14 SARAH LOPAS, Facilitator; Medical Project 15 Manager, Office of Nuclear Material Safety 16 and Safeguards (NMSS) 17 SHAUN ANDERSON, Chief, Reactor Decommissioning 18 Branch, Division of Decommissioning, 19 Uranium Recovery, and Waste Programs 20 (DUWP) 21 MARLAYNA DOELL, Decommissioning Project Manager, 22 DUWP 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
2 RHEX EDWARDS, Decommissioning Inspector, 1
Material Control, ISFSI, and 2
Decommissioning Branch, Division of 3
Nuclear Materials Safety, Region III 4
BRUCE WATSON, Special Assistant, DUWP 5
TRENT WERTZ, Senior Financial Analyst, Division 6
of Rulemaking, Environmental, and 7
Financial Support 8
9 10 ALSO PRESENT 11 KATHRYN BARNES, Don't Waste Michigan 12 JAN BOUDART, Nuclear Energy Information Service 13 KAY CUMBOW 14 ERIC DAWSON, Nuclear New York 15 DIETMAR DETERING 16 LYNNE GOODMAN 17 PAUL GUNTER, Beyond Nuclear 18 KEN HARRINGTON, Covert Township 19 JIM HOPF, Generation Atomic 20 KEVIN KAMPS, Beyond Nuclear 21 MICHAEL KEEGAN, Don't Waste Michigan 22 CONNIE KLINE 23 ALBERT LEWIS 24 SHAWN McCOMB 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
3 ALAN MEDSKER, Campaign for a Green Nuclear Deal 1
ERIC MEYER, Generation Atomic 2
PAUL MONTGOMERY 3
RYAN PICKERING, Mothers for Nuclear 4
IRIS POTTER, Michigan Safe Energy Future 5
CRAIG SCHULTZ, Michigan Safe Energy Future 6
SUSAN SUNSHINE 7
TIMOTHY SMYTH 8
KURT WEISMUS 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
(6:02 p.m.)
2 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks again for everyone 3
who's coming out tonight. My name is Shaun Anderson, 4
I'm the chief of the Reactor Decommissioning Branch in 5
NRC's Office of Nuclear Material Safety and 6
Safeguards, NMSS, in Rockville. We're trying to be 7
better for our hybrid meetings, and we have a virtual 8
setup tonight with this public meeting. So, we do 9
have a virtual meeting facilitator.
10 We'll be going over some of the ground 11 rules that we have today, and we also have an online 12 meeting feedback form that we do want to collect your 13 feedback after the meeting. So please, if you have 14 any feedback, please continue to provide that to us.
15 Before we get started, some of the safety aspects, if 16 we have an emergency tonight, exit doors are to the 17 left, and there's also out front, and to the right.
18 And restrooms are out the door right in 19 front of us all the way to the right hand side of the 20 hallway. Sarah, can you hear us online?
21 MS. LOPAS: Hi, I can.
22 MR. ANDERSON: Awesome. You want to kick 23 us off with the ground rules?
24 MS. LOPAS: Sure, yeah. So, good evening 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
5 everybody, welcome to the post shutdown 1
decommissioning activities report for the Palisades 2
Nuclear Plant, the public meeting on that. My name is 3
Sarah Lopas, my day job is a medical project manager 4
for the NRC's Office of Nuclear Material Safety and 5
Safeguards, but I'm also an NRC meeting facilitator.
6 So, I'm going to be helping out tonight.
7 I'm coming to you from our headquarters in 8
Rockville, Maryland, so I'm going to do my best to 9
coordinate with Shaun and Marlayna and the whole NRC 10 staff there in the room with you in Michigan. So, as 11 Shaun mentioned, this meeting is a hybrid meeting.
12 That means that the NRC is there hosting the meeting 13 in person at the Lake Michigan College in South Haven.
14 But I'm also obviously hosting this meeting live via 15 Microsoft Teams.
16 The NRC has three types of public 17 meetings, categories of public meetings I should say, 18 and they're kind of based on how much public 19 interaction is involved in these meetings. And so 20 tonight's meeting is a comment gathering meeting, 21 that's the most interactive public meeting we have.
22 And that means that we're holding this meeting 23 specifically to obtain public feedback on a regulatory 24 issue, which is tonight we're looking for comments on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
6 the Palisades post shutdown decommissioning activities 1
report.
2 If you're joining us via Teams, or you've 3
called in using the Teams phone in information on your 4
cell phone, or whatever, you will notice you don't 5
have access to your microphone at this time. That's 6
because when we get to the public comment portion of 7
the meeting, that's when I'll be enabling your 8
microphones if you want to speak at that time. So, 9
when we get to that point, I'm going to explain how to 10 raise your hand virtually, and that will signal to me 11 that you want to speak.
12 I won't do that now, I'll wait to do that 13 when we get to the comment portion. If at any point 14 tonight you have issues with your Teams, go ahead and 15 close out of Teams and rejoin, try to rejoin. If you 16 still have problems, then I'm going to encourage you 17 to try to call in. So, there is a phone number 18 associated with this Teams meeting. If you have a 19 piece of paper handy you may want to jot it down, or 20 a pen.
21 While you're grabbing your pen, or 22 whatever pencil, I'll note that when we get to the 23 public comment portion of the meeting, and you're 24 having trouble maybe trying to make a comment, we'll 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
7 have a slide up on the screen that will have this 1
phone number, so you'll be able to see it, and call in 2
using your cell phone at that time. So, here is this 3
phone number in case you want to write it down. It's 4
3015762978.
5 And there is a pass code associated with 6
it, it's 770089805, and then you'll hit the pound.
7 Again, and this phone number can also be found on the 8
NRC public meeting notice, so if you google NRC public 9
meetings, you'll get a public meeting schedule page, 10 and find this meeting there, and this phone number and 11 bridge line passcode are at the bottom of that public 12 meeting notice.
13 The other thing I'm going to give you 14 tonight is the ADAMS Accession number for the slides 15 that we're sharing tonight. If you end up having to 16 get off Teams, and you need to pull them up on your 17 computer, so again, you can use any browser of your 18 choice, I don't want to say Google. But the accession 19 number for our slides tonight are ML22262A303. And 20 then the last thing I'll mention tonight is because 21 the NRC staff is really looking for your public 22 comments on the PSDAR, we are recording tonight's 23 meeting, it's being transcribed by a court reporter.
24 So, we can get a nice transcript of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
8 tonight's meeting. So, in order to get a clear 1
transcript and an accurate transcript, we're going to 2
remind you to introduce yourself before you start 3
speaking. If you have an affiliation, state your 4
affiliation. We're going to ask you to keep your 5
phones muted, keep disturbances down to a minimum in 6
the room.
7 Because the audio in the room can really 8
kind of pick up everything, and our court reporter is 9
calling in as well, so that's going to be really 10 important. And then when you're in the room 11 especially, make sure you're very clear and loud and 12 speak slowly and clearly into a microphone. And I 13 think that's all I have in terms of opening ground 14 rules, so I'll hand it back to Shaun.
15 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Sarah. So what we 16 also want to do for this meeting is provide a 17 background, and make sure everyone is understanding 18 what the purpose of the meeting, to gain some 19 comments. So, Bruce Watson here, he's our special 20 assistant, also subject matter expert on 21 decommissioning at the NRC. So, Bruce do you mind?
22 MR. WATSON: Yes, thank you Shaun. As 23 Shaun said, my name is Bruce Watson, and I'm in the 24 division of decommissioning uranium recovery and waste 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
9 programs at headquarters. Again, the purpose of 1
tonight's meeting is to get your comments on the 2
Holtec PSDAR for Palisades plant. We're required to 3
hold this meeting by regulation, and we are required 4
to hold one meeting in the vicinity of the facility.
5 So, here we are in person to hold this 6
meeting, and this is required by NRC regulations.
7 Marlayna will get into the discussion on the details 8
of the PSDAR, but it is a communication tool to let 9
everybody know, including the NRC, the state, the 10 local community and the local citizens, on what the 11 plans are for decommissioning the plant. It is a high 12 level report that the NRC will review for content.
13 It is not a license amendment, or 14 licensing action, so we don't approve it. So, it is 15 just a report to us, but we have certain requirements 16 we have the content of it. And maintenance, the 17 schedule, an update on the cost estimate, and an 18 affirmation they can do the decommissioning within the 19 environmental envelope that is already existing for 20 the plant. So, there is already an environmental 21 review for the plant.
22 I know many of you may be here thinking 23 that we're going to be talking about potential restart 24 of the plant. We're not going to talk about that.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
10 The NRC is an independent safety regulator, we have 1
not received an application for any restart of the 2
plant, and so we have no knowledge to share with you.
3 The only thing I can assure you is that the NRC is an 4
independent safety regulator, we will make sure that 5
the plant is decommissioned safely.
6 And if it is approved for the plant to 7
restart, we will make sure that they meet the highest 8
standards of safety to operate the plant. But right 9
now we can't comment on it, because we have no 10 application, or anything else. Like I said, our job 11 is the safety regulator, that's what role we will play 12 in the entire situation. So, with that I'll turn it 13 back over to Shaun.
14 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Bruce. For those 15 here, we have one microphone that we're working with 16 in the room, so please bear with us as we go through 17 some of the public comments that you all have, we will 18 try to make sure that we can facilitate the microphone 19 going around the room. But we do want to make sure 20 that those online can actually hear us. I do want to 21 recognize a couple members here. David Castelveter in 22 the back, he's our director of Office of Public 23 Affairs.
24 If there's any follow-on comments and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
11 questions, his team can help everyone out to issue 1
that feedback. And also I want to recognize Jared 2
Heck up here in the front, he's our deputy director 3
for Division of Nuclear Materials and Safety in Region 4
III in Illinois. Him and his regional inspectors are 5
providing for oversight and inspections at Palisades 6
for both the decommissioning process and the storage 7
of spent fuel in the dry fuel storage facility.
8 Next slide please. So, here again, the 9
purpose of this meeting is to get your feedback on the 10 PSDAR. I know there has been previous meetings 11 associated with this topic for decommissioning of 12 Palisades, and thanks for the efforts of the Palisades 13 Community Advisory Panel to support everyone, and for 14 knowledge and information about these activities.
15 We'll give some short background on the NRC's 16 decommissioning process and experience.
17 And also show how the NRC continues to 18 maintain oversight throughout the whole 19 decommissioning process. For those who are not here, 20 or haven't heard some of this information before, we 21 do want to make sure that everyone has the common 22 understanding as we move forward. We'll also cover 23 the contents of PSDAR, as well as the NRC's review 24 process, and also get into the comment period for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
12 everyone to provide us comments on the PSDAR that's up 1
for our review.
2 With that, if you can go to the next 3
slide? Again, just to introduce some of the people 4
here on the panel. My name again is Shaun Anderson.
5 While decommissioning I'm excited to work with all the 6
experienced staff that I have, and the experienced 7
staff in the field, and working with them for 8
decommissioning. You already met Bruce Watson, 9
previous chief, and also has a wealth of experience in 10 the decommissioning program, and also for our reactors 11 themselves.
12 Marlayna Doell, the project manager for 13 Palisades. She also has a wealth of experience in 14 operating reactors, and also coordinated to put this 15 meeting together. And finally Rhex Edwards, he's our 16 senior health physicist here, also in Region III he's 17 actually the lead decommissioning inspector for 18 Palisades. Also comes with a wealth of experience 19 from Zion, La Crosse, and also 400 power stations.
20 So, we have a lot of experience, a lot of 21 information that we'll be able to share with you all 22 today. With that, I think Marlayna, you're going to 23 kick us off.
24 MS. DOELL: All right, thanks Shaun.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
13
- Again, my name is Marlayna
- Doell, I
am a
1 decommissioning project manager out of our 2
headquarters office in Rockville, Maryland. I 3
actually work remotely in Rapid City, South Dakota.
4 So, I'm on a little bit a time share still today, but 5
I'm glad to be able to join you here tonight.
6 I only took over as the decommissioning 7
project manager for Palisades this past summer after 8
they had permanently shut down. But I'm very excited 9
to be able to have the opportunity to work on this 10 project, and work with this community as we continue 11 to plan for the decommissioning of the site. So, 12 thank you again for being able to join us here tonight 13 to talk about their PSDAR.
14 Before we get too much into the specifics 15 of the Palisades site, I just wanted to provide a 16 brief overview, since I know many of you have had this 17 topic discussed before, just of our decommissioning 18 program, and to highlight some of the opportunities 19 for public involvement throughout the process.
20 Generally the transition of a plant has several steps.
21 The first one is notification from the licensee to the 22 NRC of permanent cessation of operations, and 23 permanent removal of fuel from the reactor vessel.
24 The NRC received the certifications from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
14 Palisades on June 13th of this year. Following that, 1
there's also a step for submittal of the PSDAR, and an 2
associated public meeting, which is obviously why 3
we're here tonight. In the case of Palisades, their 4
PSDAR was submitted back in December of 2020 as part 5
of the documentation that supported the license 6
transfer from Entergy to Holtec Decommissioning 7
International, or HDI.
8 But we do not officially begin the NRC 9
review of the PSDAR until that transfer went into 10 place in June. So, we are now just in the beginning 11 stages of the official review of the Palisades PSDAR.
12 I wanted to note that NRC oversight continues 13 throughout the decommissioning process. Although the 14 resident inspector is no longer present at Palisades, 15 we have a host of other oversight activities that kick 16 in once the fuel is permanently removed from the 17 reactor vessel, and Rhex will be talking about many of 18 those things later on.
19 Throughout this process, there'll be 20 several opportunities where the NRC will have to 21 review, and approve changes to the plant, mostly in 22 terms of the licensing basis. The areas that are most 23 subject to change sort of early in this transition 24 process are changes to the emergency plan, changes to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
15 the security plan, changes to some of the site 1
staffing, and technical specifications to better 2
reflect the fact the site is in a decommissioning 3
status.
4 And changes in the risks associated with 5
a plant that is no longer operating. Throughout this 6
process we prioritize decommissioning, and spent fuel 7
management coupled with -- I'm sorry. We do 8
prioritize looking at these changes throughout the 9
decommissioning process. All of these activities are 10 based on past practices at several other 11 decommissioning sites that have entered the process.
12 Some of them recently, some of them many years ago.
13 We have a whole set of guidance documents, 14 regulations and procedures that we use to make sure 15 that we're providing effective oversight of the 16 decommissioning of the site, and the same set of 17 experience and all this background knowledge will be 18 used to help safely decommission Palisades.
19 So, currently, Palisades is in the early 20 stages of the transition from operating to 21 decommissioning. This process includes depowering, 22 and draining several systems.
23 Realigning the site programs, and staffing 24 to support the planned decommissioning activities, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
16 requesting NRC approval to make several changes to 1
reflect the decommissioning status of the plant. An 2
important part of the planning effort, the PSDAR is 3
designed to inform the NRC staff of the expected 4
strategy, and schedule for major decommissioning 5
milestones.
6 This information helps guide the agency's 7
oversight, and licensing activities. The purpose of 8
soliciting feedback on the PSDAR is to highlight any 9
areas of specific concern, or to bring forward 10 information that may be relevant to the NRC staff's 11 review of the PSDAR. One of the main areas where 12 we're often interested about hearing public feedback 13 is regarding potential impact on the community related 14 to environmental considerations during 15 decommissioning.
16 Such as traffic congestion, demolition 17 noise, the methods for disposing waste from the site, 18 etcetera. So again, as part of the meeting tonight, 19 I want to invite everyone to let us know if there are 20 any specific comments you have related to the plans 21 outlined in the PSDAR for decommissioning the plant.
22 So, what we do with the comments is we will take all 23 of them, whether they're provided tonight, or through 24 our online portal, which we'll talk about later in the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
17 presentation how to make comments via the 1
regulations.gov.
2 These comments will all be taken into 3
consideration as part of the NRC's review of the 4
PSDAR. And we often like to take a lot of those 5
comments to know that there's items of specific 6
interest, so during future interactions, and future 7
meetings on the decommissioning of Palisades, we have 8
an idea of the items of specific concern. All right, 9
before I discuss the specifics that are in the 10 Palisades PSDAR, I just want to provide a general 11 overview of the content that NRC regulations require 12 be in a PSDAR document.
13 They're outlined on this slide, and as I 14 already mentioned, the primary things are the main 15 decommissioning milestones in the schedule, and to 16 provide the public with a general overview of the 17 licensee's plans, and strategy for decommissioning 18 the site. The estimated cost for decommissioning, and 19 spent fuel management are also included as part of the 20 PSDAR.
21 And within the decommissioning cost 22 estimate, the PSDAR must contain an affirmation that 23 decommissioning can be completed within the site's 24 existing environmental assumptions, and associated 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
18 reports, or the updates to these assumptions will be 1
made as needed in support of decommissioning the 2
facility. All right, this is an overview of the 3
content of the Palisades PSDAR, and the estimated 4
costs that are provided in the current version of that 5
document.
6 So, according to the PSDAR, HDI is going 7
to remove the remaining Palisades spent fuel to an 8
expanded ISFSI by 2025 with a plan to begin 9
dismantling the plant in 2035, and completion of 10 radiological decommissioning by 2041. Specifically 11 under the approach outlined in the current Palisades 12 document, HDI will place Palisades under a period of 13 safe storage, or dormancy once the remaining spent 14 fuel has been removed from the fuel pool, and this 15 period of dormancy will last until 2035.
16 After that HDI will pursue an active 17 dismantlement approach, with the goal of returning the 18 majority of the site to use as an unrestricted site by 19 2041. So, the portion of the site that contains the 20 independent spent fuel storage installation, or ISFSI, 21 will remain under the NRC license, and will have 22 continued oversight until such time as all fuel is 23 removed from the site.
24 At which time ISFSI will also be 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
19 decommissioned under its own de commissioning plan.
1 The decommissioning funding available for Palisades is 2
currently sufficient to complete radiological 3
decommissioning, and terminate the NRC license outside 4
the ISFSI. The NRC will continue to monitor these 5
funds, which is under the control of an independent 6
trustee, to ensure that there will be reasonable 7
assurance that adequate funds are available to safely 8
complete radiological decommissioning at Palisades.
9 All right, and in addition, the PSDAR does 10 contain the statement that I mentioned, saying that 11 all the environmental impacts projected during the 12 decommissioning of the site are bounded by previous 13 environmental analysis, or the updates to those 14 documents will be made if needed. All right, now I'm 15 going to turn it over to Rhex to talk a little bit 16 more about the oversight at Palisades during the 17 decommissioning process, as well as some of our spent 18 fuel management activities.
19 MR. EDWARDS: Thank you Marlayna, and good 20 evening. My name is Rhex Edwards, I am the lead 21 decommissioning inspector at Palisades, and I've been 22 involved with numerous activities at the site as it 23 transferred from operations to decommissioning status.
24 Next slide please. You've already got it up.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
20 Although difficult to read
- here, this slide 1
illustrates the proposed decommissioning schedule at 2
Palisades as provided in the post shutdown 3
decommissioning activities report.
4 And I wanted to highlight this page as a 5
source of information you can refer back to regarding 6
the decommissioning schedule at the plant going 7
forward in the future. Palisades is still early in 8
the decommissioning process, although there are some 9
activities onsite that we've been following closely, 10 and we are performing inspections, or planning to 11 perform inspections as they transition into a safe 12 storage condition at the site.
13 As well as making preparations for 14 removing all the fuel in the dry cask storage.
15 Throughout decommissioning, and this entire schedule 16 here, the key objectives of the NRC's decommissioning 17 inspection program are to one, ensure that the spent 18 fuel is being safely, and securely stored onsite. And 19 two, that decommissioning activities themselves are 20 being conducted safely.
21 And three, that site operations, and 22 license termination activities are performed 23 consistent with NRC regulations, and the NRC approved 24 license for Palisades. The frequency, and scope of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
21 inspections that we perform is usually related to the 1
phase of decommissioning at the site. For example, 2
when the facility is in a dormancy period shown here 3
between 2026, and 2035, there'll be less inspections, 4
than say what would be performed during an active 5
dismantling period between 2036, and 2041.
6 We purposely schedule inspections during 7
periods of high risk activities. Inspections are 8
primarily performed by Region III inspectors, however 9
we will supplement ourselves with specialists in 10 needed areas, such as spent fuel storage, emergency 11 preparedness, fire protection, security, etcetera. If 12 there are non-compliance issues, we do have the 13 ability to take enforcement action against Palisades.
14 And our inspection reports, like before, 15 will continue to remain publicly available. And if 16 you need help finding those, or if you're curious how, 17 we can help you access those, please see one of us 18 after. Next slide please. This slide is just a 19 zoomed in picture of the previous slide, and it 20 focuses on the current schedule of activities in the 21 near term.
22 As indicated here, the decommissioning 23 inspection program began once Palisades certify that 24 fuel was permanently removed from the reactor vessel.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
22 And also shown on this slide, highlighted in the blue 1
squares there are some currently planned activities 2
that are in preparation, or underway. The first one 3
I'll highlight is the site modifications box.
4 That's on the way presently, that involves 5
de-energizing, and draining equipment that is not 6
necessary for safe storage, or future decommissioning.
7 That also includes disposing of unneeded material, and 8
general housekeeping to prepare that site again for 9
long term storage until active dismantlement. The 10 second box there is in the independent spent fuel 11 storage installation row.
12 And that has to do with the expansion of 13 the independent spent fuel storage installation as 14 Marlayna mentioned earlier. And that goal is to 15 ultimately accommodate the remaining fuel that's in 16 the spent fuel pool, and place it in the dry cask 17 storage.
Palisades has a
fully operational 18 independent spent fuel storage installation. To 19 assist the construction of that facility, we've been 20 performing inspections there.
21 We've monitored the operation of it, and 22 additional loadings that have happened since the first 23 loading. And those inspections are going to continue 24 for as long as fuel is still onsite. We have 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
23 inspectors that specialize in spent fuel storage.
1 They will be there during the construction, and the 2
expansion of that pad, as well as during key fuel 3
movement activities, when they're placing fuel into 4
the dry cask storage out of the spent fuel pool.
5 In addition to the onsite spent fuel 6
storage inspections, we also have specialists that 7
will go into the fabrication facilities that 8
manufacture the dry cask storage components, and we 9
have one of those inspections actually occurring this 10 week. Once all the fuel is out of the spent fuel 11 pool, and into dry cask storage, I'd just like to 12 reiterate that we'll be there for as long as that fuel 13 is there to periodically monitor the operation of that 14 facility.
15 Continuing to ensure that it's safely 16 operated, the fuel will remain secure. The 17 capabilities of the emergency preparedness program 18 will assess the radiological conditions of those 19 facilities, as well as the material condition of both 20 the dry cask storage systems themselves, and the 21 storage pad that's supporting those casks. I'll now 22 hand it back to Marlayna, who will discuss the NRC's 23 review process of the post shutdown decommissioning 24 activity report.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
24 MS. DOELL: All right, thank you Rhex.
1 So, we have a couple more slides to cover, and I just 2
want to reiterate sort of the review process that is 3
currently underway for the Palisades PSDAR. As Bruce 4
has already mentioned, consistent with our 5
regulations, the PSDAR is not something that the RNC 6
formally approves. The transition for operation to 7
decommissioning, and does not involve a change to the 8
facility's license, and therefore the Palisades PSDAR 9
is not an official licensing document.
10 Therefore the review that we are currently 11 doing is what you call an acceptability review. The 12 review will be documented in a letter that's sent back 13 to HDI that documents any concerns, or other 14 questions, and goes through the different parts of the 15 PSDAR to show how the information provided meets the 16 NRC regulations for what's required to be in a PSDAR.
17 We only accept the PSDAR if the submittal meets the 18 criteria the agency established in the decommissioning 19 regulations.
20 And the associated guidance documents, 21 some of which are noted on the slide, and all of these 22 are publicly available. As far as the review process 23 goes, we're currently looking at the Palisades PSDAR, 24 if we have questions, or any other comments, or 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
25 concerns, we'll reach out directly to HDI. As part of 1
that process, some licensees will update the PSDAR.
2 Any updates to the PSDAR during the NRC's 3
current review phase will be incorporated into the 4
acceptance memo that we will draft after the end of 5
the comment period. Subsequent updates to the PSDAR 6
are not uncommon. We do see that from time to time as 7
schedules change, or some of the overall strategy 8
shifts for a site, if that occurs for Palisades, we 9
will not necessarily host another public meeting, or 10 produce another acceptance memo related to the PSDAR.
11 But all of those updates will be made 12 available publicly, as well as notifications made to 13 the state, and other stakeholders. I finally wanted 14 to note that in accordance with the NRC regulations, 15 part of the reason that the PSDAR is submitted is that 16 the plant is not allowed to take any major 17 decommissioning actions until 90 days after the NRC 18 officially begins review of the PSDAR.
19 So, as I've noted, even though we had this 20 document since 2020, we only officially began the 21 review on, I believe June 29th. So, the 90 day window 22 for Palisades will end here just a couple days on 23 September 29th, after which time they are permitted to 24 take major decommissioning activities, which was the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
26 startup span, or other activities that are on a larger 1
scale than what would be envisioned in that first 90 2
days while the review is underway.
3 All right, and finally before we get to 4
the open portion of the meeting, I just wanted to note 5
that comments on the PSDAR will be collected obviously 6
during tonight's meeting as part of the transcript, 7
which will all be made publicly available, and this 8
meeting will be summarized in that publicly available 9
meeting summary, nominally within 30 days. We also 10 have other methods for providing comments, which are 11 summarized on this slide.
12 You can submit them by mail, someone does 13 still check the mailbox, and I asked. And you can 14 also go onto the federal rule making site at 15 regulations.gov if you search for the docket ID that's 16 listed on this slide, that will bring you to the 17 actions, and there's a form that you can fill out to 18 provide public meetings. Comments are currently being 19 accepted until December 27th. So, we still have a 20 couple months for anyone to provide formal comments 21 that maybe wasn't able to attend the meeting tonight, 22 or provide comments in other ways.
23 All right, so I think we're actually at 24 the end of our prepared remarks or the evening. If 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
27 there are other questions that we're not able to 1
address tonight, or comments, you can definitely reach 2
out to our Office of Public Affairs. Their 3
information is listed here on the slide. I also want 4
to note that the backup notes for this presentation, 5
if you have downloaded them from the internet, or from 6
our agency document system, 7
I do have a backup slide, and I'll put it 8
up briefly, that has links to a bunch of different NRC 9
documents as well as specific documents for the 10 Palisades PSDAR. So, if you are looking at these 11 electronically, you can hopefully leverage some of 12 those links, and not have to search through the NRC's 13 public site in order to find this information. So, 14 with that, I think we have reached the part of the 15 meeting where I'm going to hand this back over to 16 Shaun to kick off the comment gathering portion of the 17 meeting.
18 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Marlayna. I'm 19 actually going to kick it off to Sarah. Before we get 20 into the comment period, we are going to ask for 21 comments from members of congress, elected, or state 22 local officials, representatives of local Native 23 American tribes, and the Palisades community advisory 24 panel. We're going to start from in the room first, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
28 and then we're going to transition to those that may 1
be online, and are not present with us today.
2 Sarah, did you want to kick us off with 3
some of the ground rules there before we get started?
4 MS. LOPAS: Yeah, thanks, Shaun. Right.
5 So, I'm going to explain how everybody can raise their 6
hand. If they can hold off raising hands just for a 7
moment, because, as Shaun mentioned, we want the first 8
people to raise their hand to be any elected state or 9
local government officials, any representatives in 10 local Native American tribes, and of course anyone 11 speaking on behalf of the Palisades Community Advisory 12 Panel.
13 So, those are the three groups of people 14 that I want to raise their hands right now to start.
15 So, a couple of things, depending on how many people 16 we have commenting, we're looking at probably about a 17 three to four minute time limit for your comments.
18 One thing I want to point out, I'll be kind of keeping 19 track of that time, so I'll be politely cutting you 20 off at around four minutes, so just keep that in mind.
21 The other thing is we are not going to 22 allow people to cede time to others. So, if you raise 23 your hand, or step up to the microphone, please be 24 prepared that you are speaking, you're not ceding your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
29 time. We're simply just going to get through 1
everybody that wants to speak tonight. We're going 2
until 8:00 o'clock, so let's hear from everybody at 3
least once, then we'll go for round two.
4 So, if you were planning on getting 5
comment time ceded to you, you're just going to have 6
to wait until we go for our second round. So, with 7
that being said, so with those elected state, and 8
local officials, representatives from Native American 9
tribes, or anyone speaking on behalf of the Palisades 10 Community Advisory Panel, you can go ahead and hit the 11 hand icon.
12 If you're on Teams, you're going to hit 13 the hand icon, and just click it once, that will raise 14 your hand, I'll be able to see that your hand is 15 raised. If you are on the phone, if you've called in, 16 and you're on the phone, you're going to press star 17 five, and that's going to show me that you have your 18 hand raised. Once I see hands raised, and we do do 19 comments on Teams, I'll be enabling your microphone.
20 So, what you're going to need to do is 21 after I enable your microphone, you are going to have 22 to unmute yourself. If you're on Teams, you click 23 once on your microphone icon, just click once, don't 24 double click. Because that will unmute you, and mute 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
30 you again. Just one click, unmute yourself. If 1
you're on the phone, you're going to press star six to 2
unmute yourself on the phone.
3 And the other thing to remember if you've 4
called in on your phone, and you've muted yourself on 5
your phone, unmute yourself on your phone, because 6
maybe you double muted yourself technically, right?
7 I think that's it. So, Shaun, I guess I'll go to you 8
in the room to see if there's anybody in the room 9
that's raised their hand that's one of those officials 10 that we want to hear from first, so I'll hand it over 11 to you first.
12 MR. ANDERSON: I'll start from the top.
13 Members of Congress? Elected state, and local 14 officials? All right, representatives of Native 15 American tribes? And finally the Palisades Community 16 Advisory Panel? All right Sarah, I have no hands 17 raised here.
18 MS. LOPAS: Okay, and I've got somebody on 19 the phone here, so I've got an 8853 phone number here, 20 and I'm going to allow your microphone. And you will 21 need to press star six I believe. 8853, I see you're 22 muted, you just have to unmute yourself by pressing 23 star six. Phone number, last four digits of 8853, 24 your microphone has been enabled, make sure that your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
31 own cell phone is unmuted as well, and then you'll 1
also have to press star six to unmute yourself.
2 Okay, well I do see that your microphone 3
is enabled. I apologize if you're having trouble. If 4
you're unable to join the Teams online, I can suggest 5
maybe hanging up, and calling back in if possible, and 6
we will get back to you. But I wanted to give you one 7
more try to press star six to unmute your microphone.
8 This is phone number with the last four digits of 9
8853. I think we got somebody unmuted, start talking 10 8853.
11 MS. SUNSHINE: Hello, are you there?
12 MS. LOPAS: Yes, we hear you now. Okay, 13 just speak up loudly, and introduce yourself, thank 14 you.
15 MS. SUNSHINE: All right. My name is --
16 I didn't know if you could, actually I'm on my land 17 line. That's because I couldn't get it to work on my 18 cell, so I thought I might just be listening. My 19 question is how often is it going to be a problem of 20 keeping that closed, or can't we -- you said we can't 21 talk about that exactly. I mainly just wanted to find 22 out if I could be heard, I didn't know I was going to 23 be first.
24 MS. LOPAS: Okay, so, let's get your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
32 question out of the way, but can you first introduce 1
yourself, and then repeat your question specifically?
2 I need a little more detail on that question. So, 3
please introduce yourself, your affiliation, we were 4
asking for people with PCAP at the moment, but you're 5
unmuted, it took a while, so we'll get you through.
6 So, please introduce yourself, and then repeat your 7
question.
8 MS. SUNSHINE: Okay, my name is Susan 9
Sunshine. I'm known as the Earth Poet, I'm an 10 activist with nuclear, water, and a whole bunch of 11 other things. I'm very concerned because of things 12 that are going on all over the world with nuclear.
13 And I know we're going to need to protect ourselves 14 here, and that was my main concern. Is how long this 15 will stay closed, or if they can close it all the way, 16 and not temporary.
17 MS. LOPAS: All right, thank you, Susan, 18 I'm going to go ahead and disable your microphone.
19 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks, Susan. Thanks, 20 Sarah. Currently, right now, our focus at this 21 meeting, this is focusing on the PSDAR, with a focus 22 on the next activities, and steps to support the 23 shutdown of the facility. I'm not sure if anyone else 24 wants to add any comments to that. All right, and if 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
33 you have no more hands raised, we can start with the 1
first person in the room, and if you want to queue up 2
the first person that's virtually online as we start 3
our comments here.
4 And the first person I have is Iris 5
Potter, and we'll come around to you, and provide you 6
the mic.
7 MS. POTTER: Good evening NRC staff, 8
citizens, and PCAP members who are here, or virtually.
9 My name is Iris Potter, Michigan Safe Energy Future 10 Kalamazoo Chapter, and I live in the 40 mile radius 11 from zone. Even though you already answered Mr.
12 Watson, one of the questions, not really a question, 13 you already addressed it that if HDI, or another 14 applicant was to apply, that it would be pretty easy 15 it sounds like for a possession license to go from 16 that to an operating.
17 But I am still going to go ahead with my 18 full comments. PSDAR plan is important, but Holtec 19 International as we know has a buy for a DOE plant to 20 run an operating plant, and has other options with SMR 21 developments in the works. This comes from when 22 Palisades was not operating, nor does HDI have a 23 license, according to NRC documents. But I am sure 24 that can be changed, as we have already learned. We 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
34 want HDI, the NRC, and other parties to know that we 1
strongly oppose reopening Palisades.
2 Which has serious problems worth millions 3
in repairs, which we have said for years, nor any new 4
reactors there, an SMR, or whatever. For five years 5
we were told it was to shut down, and it is. So, 6
let's get with the PSDAR. How does it plan to reopen?
7 Would some parts be decommed, and others not to make 8
room for an SMR? Or does the plan become fully move 9
time wasted. The cost estimates are almost three 10 years old.
11 According to NRC regulations, there must 12 be financial assurance quote that a full decom can be 13 done with funds available, but not in this case. The 14 NRC's website states 612 million as the highest cost 15 for decom, and this plan is already above that. We 16 know that with cost overruns, etcetera, it could be a 17 billion. Where is the decom money to come from if the 18 MDT funds are gone, and going more quickly due to HDI 19 getting an exemption for two things?
20 Spent fuel management, and site 21 restoration. They've already drawn down 166 million.
22 I believe that HDI said they would raise funds during 23 dormancy, and wait for the MDT to increase interest 24 wise. The funds of the public rate payers with no 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
35 reporting to us, and it's already been drawn down. A 1
legal concern we raised, along with our state attorney 2
general, is there's no third party oversight, and no 3
public reporting.
4 How will HDI become to be held fully 5
accountable to the people? If finances become too 6
heavy, who's to say we couldn't get into a bail 7
situation with tax payers left with it? And is the 8
parent company HDI, or HDI LLC viable? Also, we are 9
unaware of any contingency funds for unforeseen costs 10 such as fire, or radiological accident. The use of 11 subcontractors will also allow (audio interference).
12 It appears there will be a lack of real 13 time information, and only (audio interference) now 14 that the fuel rods are in the pool, I don't know when 15 we'll get reports. So, we continue to strongly oppose 16 barging across the lake, which is in (audio 17 interference) dumping of any materials into the lake.
18 Only a three feet dig for a full radiological clean 19 up, because how would tritium, and other toxins be 20 found?
21 We strongly request a full new environment 22 impact statement, and cleanup as needed, and not use 23 the 14 year old guide. HDI is not bounded by as 24 stated in the plan. We strongly request adequate 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
36 inspectors onsite, and then full time work with the 1
local municipalities to review the emergency planning.
2 Although we're not bound to it, and we hope that there 3
is enough adequate security at the plant.
4 We also know that most likely, the NRC, 5
and HDI have agreed to this plan already. Will our 6
voices be heard? I hope so, but I don't know, because 7
the Coalition did file legal intervention, which the 8
NRC refused to hear. So, really we're forced to 9
solely rely on HDI, and the NRC to protect us. This 10 is the public's Lake Michigan, and Great Lakes.
11 The drinking water for millions, our land 12 forever, our recreation, and our tourism revenue, not 13 a place for playing games, or mistakes. We are 14 watching, and involved. I love Lake Michigan so much, 15 which is why I always will speak to protect it. Thank 16 you.
17 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you Iris. A lot of 18 comments, a lot of questions in what you had. We can 19 talk -- Bruce, did you want to make a response first?
20 MR. WATSON: One part in that, part of the 21 NRC's role is to, and requirements are that there is 22 reasonable amount of money in the decommissioning 23 trust fund. And it is a trust fund that is maintained 24 by an independent trustee. And so we also require 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
37 beyond the PSDAR, annual reporting on the status of 1
that trust fund. It's required to be reported to us 2
at the end of March of each year for the previous 3
year.
4 That information is publicly available, 5
and we do respond to that, whether it's adequate, or 6
not, we may ask for questions, and we do a financial 7
analysis to ensure that the fund is going to be 8
reasonably adequate. Reasonable assurance that 9
there's adequate funds to decommission the entire 10 plant in accordance with their plan that they plan to 11 follow. Which includes this ten year safe store, 12 which will allow for the funds to grow.
13 And obviously they are managing the spent 14 fuel, which costs money, and a lot of that will be 15 returned to them from the Department of Energy. And 16 also I wanted to respond that site restoration is a 17 responsibility of the state. Once the license is 18 terminated, they will negotiate with, or have 19 negotiated at this time possibly with the requirements 20 that the state will have for the site restoration, and 21 what the site will look like after the completion of 22 the decommissioning.
23 So, I just wanted to respond to a couple 24 of your items. The funding issue is publicly 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
38 available each year. And so we monitor that, as I 1
said annually. And we want to make sure that -- our 2
role is to make sure there is adequate funding, 3
reasonable funding to complete the decommissioning.
4 MR. EDWARDS: Thanks Bruce. I also just 5
wanted to address the status of the license. I want 6
to be clear that there is an NRC license at Palisades, 7
it presently is for decommissioning, not to support 8
operations. So, I want to be clear there is a 9
license. On the decommissioning funding, there are 10 inspections that are performed that, we have a 11 specialist at headquarters that oversees submittals, 12 and inspectors are out in the field.
13 They are looking at what's actually 14 happening in the plant, and matching that up with what 15 the expense reports are saying. And I think on the 16 restoration, or the remediation of site, and how far 17 down they dig, really the answer is you have to dig 18 enough to where you meet radiological release 19 criteria. It's not necessarily going to be a certain 20 value, it's as deep as it has to be in order to show 21 that you've met this criteria. Thank you.
22 The foundations are removed typically 23 three feet below grade, but then if say there was 24 something in the soil that would be above, you'd have 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
39 to continue to dig, and remove that as deep as it is 1
to be able to meet this criteria.
2 MS. LOPAS: Hey, NRC folks, I just want to 3
remind you that we're hearing -- there's questions 4
that are being asked in the audience we can't hear, so 5
please repeat them before answering them, so that we 6
can understand what you're answering. Sorry, thank 7
you.
8 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Sarah, appreciate 9
that. That was a clarification on whether three feet 10 was the maximum I guess. And Rhex was providing 11 additional clarification. Can we go to the next 12 question that you have online?
13 MS. LOPAS: Yeah, Connie Kline, I'm going 14 to go ahead, and enable your microphone. So, I went 15 ahead, and enabled your microphone Connie Kline, and 16 up next will be Ryan Pickering. So, Connie you just 17 need to unmute yourself by clicking once on your 18 microphone icon.
19 MS. KLINE: Can you hear me?
20 MS. LOPAS: Yes, we can.
21 MS. KLINE: Okay, good. I have a couple 22 of questions, I'm going to ask the one that's most 23 related to the former speaker. At the last Palisades 24 meeting, Holtec indicated that there would be a ten 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
40 year decommissioning pause due to insufficient funds.
1 How exactly is that allowed to happen? So, that's one 2
question. I'm going to ask all the questions, and 3
then if you can just repeat them to answer them, I 4
think that would be the easiest.
5 So, that's one question about 6
decommissioning funding. I'd like to know what 7
happens to the spent fuel pool, or what's being 8
planned to happen to the spent fuel pool water, and 9
any other radioactively contaminated, or chemically 10 contaminated for that matter, water that's onsite. I 11 would like to know how much spent fuel is currently in 12 the pool, and how much spent fuel is in dry cask.
13 And the last question is I'm presuming 14 that the cask vendor is Holtec, and I'd like to know 15 what casks are being used. So, do you need me to 16 repeat any of those, or --
17 MS. LOPAS: You had a question about the 18 deficit, and decommissioning funding, what's going to 19 happen to the water in the spent fuel pool, how much 20 spent fuel is currently in the pool, and in dry casks, 21 and then what dry casks are going to be used, is that 22 23 MS. KLINE: Yes, and I'm presuming that 24 the vendor is Holtec, the dry cask vendor.
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41 MS. LOPAS: All right, just give us a 1
second Connie, I'm not in the room, but I'm guessing 2
a microphone is being passed to NRC staff.
3 MS. KLINE: That's fine, thank you very 4
much.
5 MR. WATSON: Yes, this is Bruce Watson, 6
thank you for the question --
7 MS. KLINE: I can barely hear you.
8 MR. WATSON: Let me respond to a couple of 9
the questions you've asked at the first part of your 10 talk. The NRC regulations require that the 11 decommissioning be completed in 60 years. It 12 typically takes about ten years to complete the 13 decommissioning, it is what the average has been in 14 the past, but it can be done much faster. So, Holtec 15 decided to go to a safe store situation for ten years 16 is not unusual.
17 And so, that will allow the fund to grow, 18 because there are strict requirements on the 19 investment capabilities in the NRC regulations. So, 20 they can't do any speculative investments, and they 21 have to meet certain requirements for interest rate 22 increases each year. So, in waiting ten years, yes, 23 the fund will grow at a certain rate. So, but they 24 also could wait longer if they chose to.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
42 And so, we have sites that are going to 1
wait 50 years, and then start the decommissioning.
2 So, from that perspective, they apparently want to do 3
the decommissioning fairly reasonably quick. With 4
respect to spent fuel pool water, and other water from 5
the plant, the plant has been authorized since the 6
plant was originally licensed to release water that 7
has been filtered, and run through a process control 8
program.
9 It is monitored before it is released, it 10 is diluted as it's being released, and those are in 11 the plant license today. What's going to be -- what 12 amount of water, or the amount of water that may be 13 released in the future is going to be up to Holtec to 14 decide what they plan to do with it. But they are 15 authorized by both the NRC regulations, and by the 16 environmental protection agency to meet their 17 requirements for the release of all effluence from the 18 plant.
19 Both air, water, both radiological, and 20 for chemical materials, so --
21 MS. KLINE: Excuse me one second while 22 we're on this.
23 MR. WATSON: Can you state your --
24 MS. KLINE: Where is it anticipated that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
43 this water is going to be released?
1 MS. LOPAS: Bruce, this is Connie Kline 2
speaking, Connie Kline, sorry.
3 MS. KLINE: The plant operated for almost 4
50 years I believe, and it released water to Lake 5
Michigan over that time period, and did it compliantly 6
with the NRC, and the EPA regulations to Lake 7
Michigan. With that I'll turn it over to Rhex, who 8
will respond to some of the spent fuel questions.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Thanks Bruce, and I'll try 10 to be brief, and just answer your questions directly.
11 The number of casks that are loaded with spent fuel 12 presently in the ISFSI is 49. I don't off the top of 13 my head know the number of fuel assemblies that are in 14 the spent fuel pool. I would estimate approximately 15 25 additional casks will be loaded to move all the 16 fuel out of the pool, and into dry cask storage.
17 That's an estimate, and could change, but roughly 25.
18 And then speculating a little bit about 19 what casks would be loaded in the future, they most 20 recently have loaded the Holtec HI-STORM FW systems, 21 and I assume they will plan to continue to load those 22 going forward to move all fuel into dry cask storage.
23 MS. KLINE: Was that F as in Frank, and W 24 as in woman?
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44 MR. WATSON: That's correct, FW as in 1
flood, and wind.
2 MS. KLINE: Okay, thank you so much.
3 MS. LOPAS: Great, thank you Rhex. All 4
right, Shaun I'm going to hand it back to you in the 5
room, okay?
6 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Sarah. Do we have 7
anybody online that wanted additional response from 8
the NRC? Okay, Kathryn Barnes.
9 MS. BARNES: My name is Kathryn Barnes, 10 and I'm with Don't Waste Michigan. And I've been 11 following Palisades for decades, and I'm aware of the 12 transfer from Consumers Energy to Entergy after 13 Consumers Energy promised they'd make repairs to the 14 plant. Entergy decided they didn't need to repair it, 15 so those repairs were never made, and that's why 16 Palisades should never, never, never be restarted.
17 It's embrittled, it's aging, it's dangerous.
18 I had a sigh of relief when it was shut 19 down before it blew up, because that was always on my 20 mind that it would blow up. Now I don't think that 21 decommissioning should be put on hold, period.
22 Because one of the problems with Palisades was they 23 had some underground piping leaks, where they had 24 radiological water that was filtering through the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
45 plant down that was put in pipes underneath the plant, 1
which was a bad design to begin with, but they were 2
leaking.
3 And by the time they caught the leak, 4
there was tritium underneath the plant. So, there's 5
tritium underneath that plant. The only way that you 6
can get that tritium out is to take the plant down, 7
and then dig out the contaminated soil. And the 8
sooner that's done, the better. It should have been 9
done, I don't know when that happened, 15, 20 years 10 ago when they found out about it.
11 What they did was they put different 12 piping, to repipe, bypass the underground pipes. But 13 that's not good enough just to leave that in the 14 ground, and they need to remove all of it. Like you 15 said, maybe more than three feet, maybe it's gone down 16 to 20 feet, 100 feet whatever. They have monitoring 17 wells around the plant, but not between the plant, and 18 Lake Michigan, and that bothered me.
19 I mean why don't you have monitoring well 20 on this side to see if that tritium is going in the 21 lake? So, that's a problem, and I think this 22 decommissioning should not be ever left up to Holtec.
23 I think the NRC should not say okay, you do what you 24 want with the water, you can release whatever in the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
46 air, do what you want, that's not it. You've got to 1
watchdog them, or they will do what is just the 2
easiest.
3 Today before I came here, I took a hike up 4
to the dog beach with my Alaskan Huskie. And there's 5
a place, I mean it's very insecure, anybody can walk 6
in any place around there, I mean it's just totally 7
insecure. And also there's a terrible dead stench.
8 I couldn't see dead deer, or anything, but it smells 9
like death up there, it's horrible. So, I'd like to 10 know what's causing the death smell there.
11 And the wind was blowing in very strongly 12 from the lake, but it wasn't blowing the dead stench 13 away, it was real strong. So, I'm concerned about it, 14 and I think that it's going to take a lot of 15 oversight, and I don't think it should be put on hold, 16 and definitely, definitely never start that time bomb 17 up again. That's what I have to say, and I'm very 18 passionate about it.
19 I did start work after Fukushima, after 20 seeing that, it was the cracking, and all that 21 radioactive water going out into the ocean, which is 22 still happening. That could be the Great Lakes 23 easily. So, if you see the beach, it's way up, the 24 water level is higher, it's almost sitting right up to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
47 the plant now. And I think it's a very volatile 1
situation, and we need to be concerned not only about 2
the people that live here, the people downwind, I mean 3
that could go all the way to Canada, if there was a 4
blowup.
5 And also for our future generations, which 6
are really important, and are going to have to deal 7
with the mess we made.
8 MS. LOPAS: All right, thank you Ms.
9 Barnes.
10 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you for that, and we 11 can make sure that we address your tritium concerns.
12 I do want to make sure that everyone remembers that 13 this meeting is being transcribed, and we can make 14 sure we take that back.
15 MR. WATSON: This is Bruce Watson again.
16 One thing I want to mention is that when the NRC 17 establishes the criteria for releasing the site, and 18 terminating the license, we take into account an all 19 pathways analysis, which includes any potential ground 20 water contamination, what residual activity is left 21 behind in the soil, make sure that it meets our 22 criteria for the dose criteria so we can release the 23 site from the license.
24 In the PSDAR, it is Holtec's stated 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
48 intention to release the site for unrestricted use, 1
which means they'll meet our dose criteria, and that 2
would include an all pathways analysis be performed by 3
then in their license termination plan. We will 4
review that license termination plan to ensure it is 5
technically good, and it will be incorporated as a 6
license amendment.
7 So, it becomes the requirement for them to 8
comply with in order to reach the license termination.
9 But it would include the monitoring of the entire 10 site, and any residual activity that would be 11 remaining. So, it would also include the ground water 12 issue. So, thank you.
13 MR. ANDERSON: And for those in the room, 14 Craig Schultz, it looks like you're coming up next, so 15 if you just wanted to prepare for it sir.
16 MS. LOPAS: Okay, all right, Ryan 17 Pickering, if you could unmute yourself, your 18 microphone has been enabled, and just start by 19 introducing yourself, state your affiliation if you 20 have one. Ryan Pickering.
21 MR. PICKERING: Thank you Sarah. My name 22 is Ryan Pickering, I am a researcher, and a volunteer 23 with Mothers for Nuclear. We're a pro nuclear 24 advocacy group. I was quoted in the Palisades 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
49 newspaper about this facility over the past few months 1
as a group of researchers have been looking into this 2
opportunity, and I want to point out that this plant 3
is located in an area that can serve both MISO, and 4
PJM interconnections.
5 And that has national security 6
implications, and I appreciate how seriously everyone 7
is taking this opportunity, especially with MISO 8
announcing last year that they're short on their power 9
generation supply. So, I appreciate everyone's 10 professionalism given this opportunity. I want to 11 point out to some of the folks who are talking about 12 safety, restarting Palisades will save lives, American 13 lives.
14 Because we will use less of other types of 15 energy that are more dangerous. And this is something 16 that is deeply good for America, and I appreciate 17 everyone's seriousness when it comes to protecting 18 American lives. I want to continue to advocate for 19 the workers who still want to work at this plant.
20 This has been a challenging time for the few that I've 21 met, and thanks for everyone for respecting working 22 class people, and our effort to make this country 23 affordable.
24 And I will end my comment by saying that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
50 I appreciate everyone working together in these times, 1
and we can -- especially young people see the 2
opportunity for an abundant energy future, and it's 3
our responsibility to provide that to the young people 4
of this country, because we have discovered something 5
very important here. And we look forward to building 6
new nuclear, and building advanced nuclear, and 7
building a hydrogen economy, and young people get it, 8
and we appreciate that our government is providing 9
leadership at this time, thank you.
10 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Ryan.
11 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you Ryan, thanks 12 Sarah.
13 MR. SCHULTZ: My name is Craig Schultz, 14 I'm with Michigan Safe Energy Future. I live 50 miles 15 from the plant. It's amazing to me that today that 16 the decommissioning trust fund has less money in it 17 today than it had in 2007. The money was drained down 18 when the ownership was transferred to Entergy, the 19 money has not been recovered to this date, and the 20 decommissioning trust fund has less money than Holtec 21 estimates is required, and hence the dormancy period.
22 We're relying on the stock market to pump 23 up that decommissioning trust fund. All the people in 24 this room that live in west Michigan have enjoyed the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
51 benefits of this power for 50 years, and yet we want 1
to kick the process of decommissioning down to our 2
children and grandchildren. I find that despicable.
3 We created a mess, it's our responsibility to clean it 4
up.
5 We enjoyed the benefits of power from that 6
plant, it's our responsibility to take responsibility 7
for the contamination at the site. And that includes 8
the decommissioning trust fund. Now, Entergy funded 9
the decommissioning trust fund at the minimum 10 requirement by the NRC. When we asked them, they 11 specifically said we are funding that exactly how the 12 NRC requires. And yet here we are, 50 years of 13 operation with not enough money in the decommissioning 14 trust fund.
15 So, my comment to the NRC is please revise 16 your requirements, so that when a plant ends its 17 operation, we're not requiring our children and grand 18 children to fund the cleanup. It's just very mean of 19 us to leave that legacy for our children. I will make 20 a comment, I think it's a little disingenuous that a 21 few days after Holtec took possession, or ownership of 22 the plant, they applied to reopen the plant.
23 We've been planning for five years, the 24 NRC, Entergy Corporation, there's years of planning to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
52 safely bring the plant to cessation, and decommission 1
it. And then days after Holtec takes possession, they 2
apply for a grant to reopen the plant. So, there's 3
not enough money in the decommissioning trust fund 4
right now, the short fall will be paid by people who 5
didn't enjoy the benefits of the power. And then 6
we're taking tax payer money from the federal 7
government perhaps to reopen the plant.
8 All the while the corporations were 9
profiting. I expect better from the NRC. The 10 accountability for making the profits, they should be 11 paying their fair share for the decommissioning, and 12 the safety, and the maintenance of the plant. So, we 13 went for years under the assumption the plant would be 14 permanently closed in May of 2022, and there were a 15 lot of deviations, or allowances from the NRC to skip 16 improvements to the plant related to fire safety, also 17 maintenance of critical systems was allowed to slip.
18 So, the plant is in very poor condition 19 today, or much poorer condition than it would have 20 been if the NRC had required the plant to maintain its 21 regulations. But those deviations were granted to the 22 plant, and now if the plant does restart with federal 23 funds, the taxpayers are paying for the maintenance 24 that should have been taken care of by the for profit 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
53 corporation.
1 And again, I hold the NRC responsible for 2
their part in that. We have rules for safe operation, 3
and maintenance of the plant, and I expect the NRC to 4
hold the for profit corporations accountable for that.
5 MS. LOPAS: Okay. Shaun, I'm going to ask 6
you to repeat, was that Craig Schultz who just 7
commented?
8 MR. ANDERSON: Correct.
9 MS. LOPAS: Okay, I just wanted to make --
10 it was hard to hear, for the benefit of the court 11 reporter. And just a reminder, for the folks in the 12 room, when you introduce yourself, just wait to start 13 speaking until you have that microphone right close to 14 your mouth, because it is a little bit tough to hear 15 when the microphone isn't close. So, thank you. Are 16 we ready for -- sorry Shaun, go ahead.
17 MR. ANDERSON: I just wanted to make sure 18 if anyone from the financial group had anything to 19 say. I know we've already covered the financial piece 20 there. Just as a reminder, we have an application in 21 front of us related to the restart of the facility, 22 any additional comments here? No? Thank you for the 23 comments, we will take that back. Just one 24 clarification, is Ken Huntington here? I couldn't 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
54 tell if you wanted to have a comment, or not tonight.
1 Harrington, is that a yes? Well, not 2
right now, I have you coming up next, I just couldn't 3
see the yes, or no here. Sarah, you want to go next?
4 MS. LOPAS: Yeah, so just a reminder, if 5
you are on the phone press star five to raise your 6
hand, and I'll be able to see that you want to make a 7
comment if you're on the phone, star five. I've got 8
four people lined up, so next person here on the Teams 9
meeting is Eric. Eric, you can go ahead, and unmute 10 yourself.
11 MR. MEYER: Well, thank you very much.
12 Yes, my name is Eric Meyer, I'm a city councilor, and 13 the executive director of Generation Atomic. Yeah, 14 calling in tonight to remind everyone with what's at 15 stake with this facility here, and what a huge 16 opportunity it is to restart it, both in terms of 17 economic health of the region, but more importantly 18 the health-health.
19 The health impacts, already seen a 20 dramatic increase in the use of fossil fuels from 21 closing palisades down as power shifted to coal, and 22 fossil fuel, other fossil fuel facilities. It's the 23 equivalent of getting rid of all of the wind in the 24 state of Michigan, and really shouldn't be acceptable 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
55 from an environmental, or air pollution standard, 1
especially considering the communities that are 2
located near those fossil fuel plants a lot of times.
3 And how they're disproportionately 4
affecting minorities. So, that's -- I know we're here 5
to talk about decommissioning, and so I apologize for 6
changing the subject on it, but I do think that the 7
safer thing to do, and the NRC is worried about 8
safety, is to restart the facility, because of all of 9
the air pollution, and climate impacts that will be 10 avoided as a result. So, thank you so much, and good 11 luck going forward.
12 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Eric. Shaun?
13 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Sarah, walking over 14 here to Ken.
15 MR.
HARRINGTON:
Thank
- you, Ken 16 Harrington, Covert Township supervisor. Just a brief 17 question here. I know the decommissioning is in its 18 early stages, but so far has the NRC noted any non-19 compliance issues major, or minor so far at this 20 juncture that warrants attention right now?
21 MR. ANDERSON: Great, good question. I'll 22 open it to senior inspector.
23 MR. EDWARDS: So, I'll repeat the 24 question, and those online please give me feedback if 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
56 you can't hear me okay. The question was have we 1
observed any non-compliance at the site? And I 2
presume sir, that's from the time they've permanently 3
shut down, and entered decommissioning. I'll preface 4
that all of our inspections are currently in progress, 5
and we don't make decisions on those until the end.
6 Rest
- assured, we were bringing up 7
observations to them that may not be compliance issue, 8
but maybe something we think they could improve upon.
9 They are taking our feedback, they're placing that 10 into their corrective action program, and addressing 11 those questions, or possibly concerns that we might 12 have. But the final answer to your question will be 13 in an inspection report to be written yet, and our 14 final conclusions are not yet done yet.
15 I hope that gives you a little bit of an 16 understanding of where we're at. There's more 17 inspections to happen this year, we've got inspections 18 in October, November, and possibly beyond this year.
19 And we'll issue our report here towards the end of the 20 year. So, appreciate the question, thank you.
21 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Rhex. And for those 22 in the room, Kyle Demager should be queued up next.
23 Sarah, to you.
24 MS. LOPAS: Okay. So, the next person I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
57 have on teams is Dietmar Detering. Dietmar, I've 1
enabled your microphone, so just unmute yourself with 2
a single click. Dietmar are you there? Just one 3
click on the microphone icon on Teams should unmute 4
you. And if that's not working, let me try one more 5
trick up my sleeve. Let's see.
6 MR. DETERING: Yes, this works, thank you 7
very much Sarah. My name is Dietmar Detering, I'm a 8
pro nuclear environmentalist, and we heard some 9
comments here about concerns about the 10 decommissioning process, and what could happen. My 11 question to the commission is what are the actual 12 dangers aside from somebody eating the spent fuel, 13 which hopefully is not going to happen, that would 14 result?
15 We hear a lot about the standards that the 16 NRC has that have to be followed in the 17 decommissioning process, but what are the actual 18 risks, and what are the worst case scenarios, and how 19 likely are they? If you can elaborate on that. These 20 fears are somewhat related to the costs that have come 21 up here. It is indeed very expensive to decommission 22 a nuclear power plant.
23 And I go back to why that is, it's the NRC 24 guidelines. And I believe these guidelines are still 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
58 on the disqualified linear no threshold hypothesis.
1 This hypothesis has been disqualified for decades now 2
in the science community. My question to the NRC is:
3 when do you start following actual science? That 4
means ditching the NRC, and treating radiation, in 5
particular low level radiation, as the low risk that 6
it actually is posing?
7 We have real scientific evidence on the 8
dangers of air pollution, eight million people die 9
every year from air pollution. Shutting down a 10 nuclear power plant, or making nuclear power plants, 11 including their decommissioning so expensive that no 12 new nuclear power plants are being built is causing 13 more air pollution as a result, because other fuels 14 are being used.
15 And we have real science on the risk of 16 climate change, again making nuclear more expensive 17 including making decommissioning more expensive will 18 lead to more climate risks. These are facts that are 19 evidenced by real science, and the NRC is making its 20 decisions, and the guidelines on decommissioning 21 effecting the cost of nuclear power based on outdated, 22 some people say fraudulent science, which is the LMT.
23 And we have to balance real science with 24 real science on radiation, and not some fake science 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
59 that has been cooked up some 90, or 100 years ago on 1
fake evidence. So, these are my questions. A, what 2
are the actual dangers, arguing with real science?
3 And when is the NRC using actual science to make their 4
guidelines, and to oversee things like decommissioning 5
power plants for example? Thank you.
6 MS. LOPAS: Okay, thank you Dietmar.
7 MR. WATSON: This is Bruce Watson, I'll 8
try to respond to some of those questions. Number 9
one, the plants are decommissioned safely, there is a 10 certain amount of nuclear risk because of the nuclear 11 fuel, but that is managed, and placed into safe 12 storage in the dry storage containers. There's 13 radiological risk, which you've talked about, with 14 exposures to people, and entering the environment.
15 And also there's an industrial safety risk 16 of dismantling the plant, and we expect the licensees 17 to maintain a good safety program, adequate safety 18 program that no one gets injured, or a fatality 19 occurs. So, that area is regulated by OSHA. Specific 20 to your questions about radiation risk, the NRC 21 commissioners set the policy for the radiation risks.
22 They follow pretty much the International 23 Committee on -- ICRP, International Commission on 24 Radiation Protection. They are this scientific group 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
60 that is worldwide experts that provide recommendations 1
on radiation exposures within the United States. We 2
also have the NCRP, which is the National Council on 3
Radiation Protection, and they formulate 4
recommendations on radiation exposure.
5 Which go to the president, who also issues 6
the federal regulation guidelines or the U.S.
7 government to follow. So, all of this is based on 8
their science, and their facts of radiation risk. And 9
so the commission establishes that policy in following 10 the recommendations of the scientific community. So, 11 I know that's probably not the answer you wanted to 12 hear, but that's the current policy, and we're 13 obligated to follow it, so thank you.
14 MS. LOPAS: All right Shaun, back to you 15 in the room.
16 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Sarah, going to 17 room, Kyle Demager.
18 MS. LOPAS: And Shaun, I just want to 19 remind everybody, it's 7:17, let's try to stick to 20 that kind of four minute time limit in terms of 21 comments. I don't know how many people you have in 22 the room that want to comment, but I know we're going 23 to get more online here. So, thanks.
24 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, and no Kyle Demager, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
61 so let's do Kurt Weismus.
1 MR. WEISMUS: My name is Kurt Weismus, can 2
you hear me online? Okay. I co-own some property in 3
Covert, just a few miles away from Palisades. I'm 4
recently separated from the Navy, spent five years as 5
a (audio interference) went to CBRD specialist school 6
in Fort Leonard Wood, and then ten years on board U.S.
7 submarines, I've got some familiarity with nuclear 8
power plants.
9 And as far as the trust, or the amount in 10 the trust goes, I really don't think you guys have 11 enough, and is there a plan to increase that in the 12 near future? And as far as cleaning up any nuclear 13 waste, or your guys' dry cask system, do you know if 14 they've looked into, since Michigan's a marijuana 15 state, have you looked into using hemp plants like 16 they have done in Chernobyl, for cleaning up any 17 nuclear waste?
18 And has anybody come up with an idea to 19 use the 30 decommissioning submarines for the Los 20 Angeles class, and Ohio class submarines? Maybe you 21 guys could make a dry dock facility or something. And 22 I just really think you guys should try to keep this 23 plant open. I know some people have some differing 24 opinions.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
62 But we've got I96 getting connected at 31, 1
so we might be getting a lot more electric vehicles 2
coming in, and out of the area, it would be nice to 3
have that extra power. And last, but not least, 4
whether you want to decommission, or keep the plant 5
going, I think it's pretty sad that we didn't have 6
very much government representation here tonight, and 7
hope everybody contacts their local reps to change 8
that.
9 MR. EDWARDS: Thanks for your feedback.
10 This is Rhex, but just as a reminder, some of the 11 questions, and some of the approaches that would be 12 more appropriate for Holtec to answer those questions, 13 we are the safety regulator.
14 MR. WATSON: This is Bruce Watson again.
15 I just wanted to respond to a few of your comments, 16 and first of all thank you for your service to the 17 country I the U.S. Navy. There's quite a few people 18 here who also served, including our number one 19 inspector here, Rhex. But as I said, we do monitor 20 annually the decommissioning trust fund, and if 21 there's shortfalls, then we will be addressing that 22 with Holtec international to make sure it is growing 23 at the proper rate, and it will meet the requirements 24 to clean up the site.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
63 With respect to the nuclear waste issues, 1
I know you mentioned the Los Angeles class submarines, 2
those are decommissioned at Puget Sound, and yeah --
3 MR. WEISMUS: To my knowledge they're 4
still good.
5 MR. WATSON: Yeah, just the comment was 6
the life of them could be extended even longer than 7
they're doing right now, for the Los Angeles class 8
submarines, right? Yeah. So, we really can't comment 9
on that, that's the Navy's issue. But I appreciate 10 the comment. We are involved in some of the 11 decommissioning of the surface ships for naval 12 reactors.
13 And we do have a connection with them in 14 that respect. So, I think that's about all I can say 15 right now.
16 MR. ANDERSON: Thanks Bruce, back to you 17 Sarah.
18 MS. LOPAS: Okay, up next we have Timothy 19 Smyth. Timothy, your microphone has been enabled, so 20 just unmute yourself. You just click on the 21 microphone icon once if you have that ability. All 22 right, let me try my trick up my sleeve, and let me 23 see if this is going to help you. All right, now are 24 you able to unmute yourself, Timothy Smyth? All 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
64 right, Timothy, I'm going to ask you, if you're having 1
issues, to maybe try to hang up.
2 Disconnect from Teams, maybe you can call 3
in, and raise your hand, try to call in from the 4
phone, okay? Hang on one second everybody. I'm going 5
to get our next person up, will be Jan Boudart. I'm 6
going to allow your microphone, and Jan you should be 7
able to unmute yourself now. And you just click on 8
the microphone icon.
9 MS. BOUDART: I believe I am unmuted.
10 MS. LOPAS: You are, go ahead, thank you.
11 MS. BOUDART: I wonder if someone could 12 direct me to the place in the NRC regulations where 13 you specify the investments that the decommissioning 14 fund must conform to that ensure that it will increase 15 in value. I think this is extremely chancy, but then 16 I don't understand what you have in mind when you say 17 that you control their investments such that they're 18 not taking risks.
19 I don't believe it's possible to invest 20 money without taking risk. So, I'm absolutely puzzled 21 by that, and I would like to know chapter, and verse 22 where the NRC has that assurance. You said it was in 23 the regulations somewhere, or maybe not the 24 regulations, but somewhere in the NRC documents. And 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
65 I wanted to comment that Shaun, whoever he was, 1
assumed we knew who he was, and he didn't do an 2
adequate introduction of himself.
3 Therefore I have no idea who he was, 4
because I'm not party to the knowledge of the people 5
involved, and so on. And I also wanted to agree with 6
Kurt on maybe the one issue that Kurt, and I might 7
agree on is that -- wait, was it Kurt? Yeah, Kurt 8
Weismus, the only thing we could possibly agree on is 9
that it's very sad that more government officials were 10 not here, and more representatives of the people.
11 People who were elected to represent us 12 don't come to this kind of an essential meeting to 13 hear the essential, and passionate opinions of their 14 constituents. We find -- I'm a member of a Nuclear 15 Energy Information Service, and we have regular 16 meetings where we invite -- they're educational 17 meetings. We have regular educational meetings where 18 we invite elected officials, and their staffers to 19 come to our meetings.
20 And we review nuclear issues in our state, 21 and they don't come. So, I certainly agree with that, 22 although everything else he said, I disagree with.
23 So, I'd like to know what these financial assurances 24 are. I do not believe in those. And I'd like Shaun 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
66 to give us a better introduction, and I do think it's 1
sad that more government officials are not here, and 2
that's my comment.
3 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Jan.
4 MR. ANDERSON: I apologize, I thought I 5
introduced myself twice in the introductions. But I'm 6
Shaun
- Anderson, I'm the chief of reactor 7
decommissioning for the NRC. Six months within the 8
decommissioning side of the house, been at the agency 9
17 years on the operating side of the house. And to 10 answer the question on financial assurance, we do have 11 a member of staff that's online that wants to provide 12 you a response there.
13 MR. WERTZ: Yes, this is Trent Wertz. I'm 14 the senior financial analyst in the Division of 15 Rulemaking, Environmental and Financial assessment.
16 And to your point, you are correct, there is no 17 guarantee when you invest money that you're going to 18 make money. But specifically to answer your questions, 19 the regulations are 10 CFR 50.75, it spells out in 20 general terms that the licensee doesn't control their 21 investments.
22 They have what they call a master trust 23 agreement with another outside firm, it's typically 24 the New York Bank of Mellon, and they have an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
67 agreement with that entity, that that trustee will 1
make prudent -- there's what they call a prudent 2
investor clause that prevents them from -- it doesn't 3
prevent them from investing in speculative things, and 4
things that might cause it to lose value.
5 But they try to invest in safe securities, 6
investments, whatever they deem fit. And see that 7
point, that's why at this point every two years, we 8
get a report from the operating reactors, and every 9
year from reactors in decommissioning on the 10 performance of the decommissioning trust funds, where 11 they are, and if there is a deficiency they have to 12 tell us in that report how they're going to fix it, 13 and get it to where it's still supposed to be.
14 So, again, the regulation is 10 CFR 50.75H 15 to be specific if you want to look that up. I hope 16 I've answered your question.
17 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Trent. Shaun, I'm 18 going to hand it back to you.
19 MR. ANDERSON: All right, Kevin Kamps.
20 MR. KAMPS: Hello everybody, my name is 21 Kevin Kamps, and I serve as radioactive waste 22 specialist at Beyond Nuclear. I'm also on the board 23 of directors of Don't Waste Michigan, representing the 24 Kalamazoo Chapter, advisory board of Citizens for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
68 Alternatives to Chemical Contamination, and yeah, so 1
the first thing I wanted to say is there's been a 2
fraud perpetrated on the public.
3 A swindle, a con job, the list goes on.
4 We've been lied to. In December of 2020 Holtec, and 5
Entergy said there's going to be a license transfer, 6
and it's based on Entergy shutting the plant down for 7
good. And 30 days later, once fuel has been removed 8
from the core, Holtec will take over the license, the 9
site, and will decommission. And I'd like to thank 10 the NRC for writing me on July 17th of this year to 11 let me know that in fact that is what has happened.
12 On June 28th took over the license, took 13 over the site, it's a possession only license.
14 Entergy has removed fuel from the core, put it in the 15 storage pool, and there's no operating license left.
16 So, I'd just like everybody in the room to know at 17 NRC, and at Holtec, in the governor's office, and the 18 energy secretary's office that a license amendment to 19 operate this plant is applied for. We will be on it 20 legally.
21 At every turn it will be challenged, just 22 as this plant was challenged before it was built by 23 the likes of Maynard Kaufman for one example, out here 24 in Bangor. The likes of Sandy Adams in Kalamazoo, who 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
69 collected petition signatures against this plant 1
before it was built. The resistance to Palisades goes 2
back way more than 50 years, and we're not going to 3
stop showing up.
4 And we certainly are upset about Holtec 5
taking over this plant under false pretenses. Taking 6
it over on June 28th of this year, and then eight days 7
later secretly applying to the U.S. Department of 8
Energy for a billion dollars, or more in federal tax 9
payer money to continue operating this plant for 10 several more years until 2031 when the current 11 extended license ends.
12 For 80 years, for 100 years as NRC likes 13 to entertain, we're going to challenge all of this.
14 So, those are old reactor challenges that we will 15 engage in. Krishna Singh's (phonetic) trial balloon 16 to build one or more small modular reactors, in this 17 very room back in April, I said over my dead body. I 18 stand by that. So, it's too bad that we had to find 19 out on September 9th that Holtec had made application 20 on July 5th for this federal bailout.
21 It's demanding a state bailout, and we're 22 going to challenge all of this. We're going to 23 challenge the bailouts, we're going to challenge the 24 license, and I know this meeting, I just had to get 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
70 all that out, because this meeting is so absurd.
1 We're talking about a post shutdown decommissioning 2
activities
- report, and a
decommissioning cost 3
estimate.
4 We don't even know how long Holtec plans 5
to operate this plant. All the dates in the PSDAR if 6
Holtec gets its way are obviously wrong, right? And 7
if they operate this old dangerous plant for years, or 8
decades longer, the radioactive contamination is going 9
to be worse. There's going to be more waste onsite to 10 manage. How can the decommissioning cost estimate 11 mean anything?
12 So, the absurdities are quite grand, and 13 we're going to fight all these dangerous proposals.
14 I guess I'm at my four minutes, so I'll just close 15 because one of the speakers by phone brought up saving 16 lives. And I'd just like to point out Palisades has 17 the worst embrittled reactor pressure vessel in the 18 United States, perhaps the world. Arnie Gundersen, 19 our expert nuclear engineer during our interventions 20 here over the years, and decades, just the other day 21 said it's probably the most embrittled in the world.
22 So, if you fire this plant back up, you've 23 got the embrittlement of the reactor pressure vessel, 24 you have the lid that Consumers Energy in 2006 said 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
71 needed replacement, it's not been replaced. The year 1
is 2022 now. The steam generators need to be replaced 2
for the second time. The control rod drive mechanisms 3
have failed since 1972. Again on May 20th of this 4
year, which led to Entergy permanently shutting down 5
the plant 11 days early.
6 So, you've got one of the most dangerous 7
reactors in the country, or in the world. And NRC's 8
own crack two report --
9 MS. LOPAS: Hello Kevin, this is five 10 minutes, so we're going to have to move on, I'm sorry.
11 I'm trying to be fair, because we do have a number of 12 people in line to comment, and you didn't acknowledge 13 that you were at your four minutes about a minute ago.
14 So, I apologize for that, but I'm going --
15 MR. ANDERSON: You're going to have to 16 talk a little later after we get through all the 17 comments.
18 MS. LOPAS: Yeah, absolutely.
19 MR. ANDERSON: Go ahead Sarah.
20 MS. LOPAS: Okay, so up next, I have 21 enabled Alan Medsker's microphone. Alan, you just 22 have to unmute yourself.
23 MR. MEDSKER: Okay, thank you very much.
24 My name is Alan Medsker, I am a volunteer with 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
72 Campaign for a Green Nuclear Deal. I am a pro nuclear 1
environmentalist, and I'll keep my comments short 2
here. The most dangerous nuclear plant is one that 3
you either shut down, or don't build in the first 4
place. And that's because when we don't have nuclear, 5
everything else that we can use to provide reliable 6
large scale power requires us to burn stuff.
7 And that pollutes the air, and ends up 8
killing people. So, I am in full support of continued 9
operation of Palisades either as it was, with 10 appropriate maintenance, and upgrades, or with new 11 nuclear reactor technology, advanced reactors, either 12 way. Because I know that once the nuclear plant comes 13 online, it displaces, and it alone displaces dirty 14 fossil fuels unless you have the ability to build 15 hydroelectric dams.
16 Because those are really the only two 17 clean energy sources that can displace fossil fuels.
18 And we need to displace a lot of fossil fuels, because 19 they are killing us. So, I know that that's a little 20 bit off topic, and I just really appreciate the work 21 that the NRC does, and thank you for the opportunity 22 to speak up.
23 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Alan. Shaun, I'll 24 hand it back to you.
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73 MR. ANDERSON: Okay, thanks Sarah. Albert 1
Lewis. This is the last person that we have that's 2
signed up, and we'll go back to Sarah to doing the 3
remaining comments online, and then we'll come back to 4
the room if there's any additional.
5 MR. LEWIS: Hello, I'm Albert Lewis. I've 6
got a book here that shows at five miles from that 7
plant, you're in danger. What are you going to pay 8
us? You're putting us in danger again, now. We were 9
happy you got rid of the damn thing. I'm not going to 10 say a whole lot, but it's time to get rid of that mess 11 you've got. I just talked to a guy that worked there, 12 he said that'll never open again, and he's worked in 13 there, and he's got another job.
14 Half of them have got other jobs, and the 15 other half of them are retired. You don't need that 16 thing. And that plume that goes off, our weather has 17 changed since that thing has been in there. That's 18 about all I got to say, but I got the book right here 19 with the truth. You put me in the danger zone, I live 20 five miles from it, I'm not going to tell you what my 21 farm is worth, because I'll get taxed on it.
22 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you Albert.
23 MR. LEWIS: I don't want to be pushed out 24 with that plant blowing up. My kid welded on it 30 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
74 years ago, and the inspector told him, he said this is 1
only good for 30 years. And it's 20 years over right 2
now.
3 MR. ANDERSON: Appreciate it, thanks for 4
your comments Albert. Sarah, did you want to --
5 MS. LOPAS: Shaun, yeah, we've got a 6
number of people on Teams, so I'm going to kind of 7
strictly enforce the four minutes, if you can do it in 8
less than four minutes, we'll be even happier. Lynne, 9
your microphone has been enabled, please introduce 10 yourself. Lynne, just unmute yourself. If you are 11 unable to unmute yourself, I'm going to try one more 12 thing for you. Now try to unmute yourself Lynne.
13 MS. GOODMAN: That worked.
14 MS. LOPAS: Great.
15 MS. GOODMAN: My name is Lynne Goodman, I 16 was previously involved in decommissioning nuclear 17 plants, and I live in the eastern part of the state of 18 Michigan. I have two types of comments. The first is 19 that as a Michigan resident, especially one that's 20 downwind from Consumers Power, they're shutting down 21 Palisades, that means I am now breathing more 22 pollution, and so my health is being impacted by that.
23 And so, I really think that the plant 24 should seriously be considered for restart, so that we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
75 are putting less polluted air into the state of 1
Michigan. The second topic I wanted to speak on is 2
decommissioning cost. The decommissioning cost for 3
Palisades seems rather low to me. And while in 4
general, based on the past ten years of economics, if 5
you leave money sit it makes money faster than 6
inflation.
7 But when you're in an inflationary time 8
period, it is very difficult to meet the delta as far 9
as that you're earning more money than costs are going 10 up. So, I really think that a good, hard look needs 11 to be done at the decommissioning cost estimate, that 12 the assumptions need to be well monitored with what's 13 going on in today's economic situation as far as 14 whether, or not the amount of money will increase to 15 cover the costs. That's it.
16 MS. LOPAS: All right, thank you Lynne.
17 Give me one second everybody, moving as quickly as I 18 can. Okay, next up in line we have Jake, Jake you 19 should be able to unmute yourself, and please 20 introduce yourself, and state your affiliation.
21 MR. LACE: Hey there, can you hear me?
22 MS. LOPAS: Yes.
23 MS. LOPAS: Hey, my name is Jake Lace, a 24 local community member in love with logic, and facts.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
76 And I just had a short question for the NRC in that if 1
the proper plan came forward, and the proper operator 2
came forward, what are the legal avenues for the NRC 3
to reissue the original operating license, or 4
something along the same lines as the original 5
operating license?
6 MS. LOPAS: Shaun, can we talk about that 7
at all, or -- just wondering. Hold on, can't really 8
hear you Shaun, speak up, sorry.
9 MR. ANDERSON: Sorry, can you hear me now?
10 MS. LOPAS: Yes.
11 MR. ANDERSON: We do want to focus on the 12 PSDAR as we move forward today, but if that's 13 something that could always come before the agency, 14 that's something that we will all come together, and 15 look at as an agency on determining how we want to 16 move forward, or how we should move forward. Anybody 17 want to add anything?
18 MR. WATSON: Yeah, I think -- this is 19 Bruce Watson. What the agency is doing right now is 20 evaluating how we might entertain an application, and 21 what probably should be in it, and we have our normal 22 safety reviews that we would do for an application.
23 So, I don't think there's any -- right now we're going 24 through the evaluation phase, so we don't really have 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
77 an answer for the question. So, it's just where we 1
are.
2 It's fairly new in the process, we 3
announced this program recently, so it's too early to 4
tell.
5 MR. ANDERSON: And just a reminder for 6
everyone in the room, what we're trying to do is 7
finish, we have about a half dozen individuals on the 8
phone that haven't spoken just yet, and if we are able 9
to get through everyone, we do want to go for second 10 rounds if anyone else has additional comments.
11 MS. LOPAS: Okay, all right, up next we 12 have Michael Keegan. Michael, you should be able to 13 unmute yourself, and just state your affiliation, and 14 introduce.
15 MR. KEEGAN: Hello?
16 MS. LOPAS: Hi?
17 MR. KEEGAN: Can you hear me? Thank you.
18 A very interesting kabuki dance, I'd like to welcome 19 the public relations commercials from the four quote 20 unquote environmentalist groups. I take issue with 21 the exemptions on the decommissioning trust fund that 22 Holtec applied for in December 2020. A year later, 23 the NRC approved that to allow them to start to tap 24 the decommissioning trust fund, and they don't even 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
78 have to notify the NRC when they do it.
1 Several nuclear power plants have asked 2
for the same exemption. Stop giving exemptions, make 3
the rule. How about a rule making? Promulgate the 4
rule where there can actually be some public hearing 5
on this process. This amounts to the looting of 6
funds, and the funds are going to be exhausted. And 7
the community is being left holding the bag. Holtec 8
is a limited liability corporation.
9 Once they money is gone, it's gone. I 10 take particular issue with the 166 million dollars for 11 this nuclear fuel management. At the same time 12 they'll be tapping the DOE, because they're the 13 injured party because the DOE didn't make good on a 14 contract. Those monies should be put back in the 15 decommission trust fund. You can't tap that same need 16 twice. Holtec needs to stop putting it in their 17 pocket.
18 I take issue with the PSDAR, the plans to 19 build a port right at Palisades, that's a major 20 environmental undertaking, which will need an 21 environmental impact statement. Barging high level 22 nuclear waste on the Great Lakes, barging steam 23 generators on the Great Lakes, that's not going to 24 happen. You need to understand that, we're not going 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
79 to put up with that, so just get that out of your 1
head.
2 We need real time monitoring at the plant, 3
because the community is at risk of releases from the 4
plant, and the NRC, and Holtec will not come clean.
5 So residents need real time monitoring where they can 6
audit it, and regarding this kabuki dance, what a 7
mockery you've made of this whole process. My God, 8
this is just to chase the money. So, those are my 9
comments, and regarding what the NRC is looking at 10 their policy, how to go about bringing the license 11 back, amendments, what have you.
12 Rest assured we will be suing you in 13 federal court. So, thank you very much, Michael 14 Keegan, Don't Waste Michigan, I've been reviewing this 15 plant for 40 years. And if somebody's thinking about 16 buying this sucker, they need to think again. Thank 17 you.
18 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Michael. All right, 19 next, Timothy Smyth, we have you back on again, see if 20 you can unmute yourself Timothy.
21 MR. SMYTH: Hi, can you hear me?
22 MS. LOPAS: Yes.
23 MR. SMYTH: Hi, I just wanted to indicate 24 my support if there's a possibility of bringing back, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
80 or restarting the plant. I think it would be with the 1
environmental challenges, in terms of energy 2
production, especially in Michigan and the Midwest, I 3
think it would be an important thing to do to help 4
both the environment and the economy.
5 I do want to point out a couple of things 6
that have been brought up. One is I think people who 7
are concerned about the civil credit program, and the 8
Inflation Reduction Act that was passed last year need 9
to bring that issue up with the elected 10 representatives, including many in Michigan who voted 11 for that legislation last year. I'll also note on the 12 issue of decommissioning, in terms of shipping spent 13 fuel, or medium level radioactive waste, irregardless 14 of what the NRC approves, the government of Canada, 15 and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission has already 16 approved that as a means of transport for plants on 17 the Canadian side of the border.
18 And perhaps people, if they're saying it's 19 going to be over their dead bodies, they need to start 20 talking to the Canadian embassy in Washington D.C.,
21 and starting a conversation with them. Because the 22 government of Canada has already done this, and 23 indicated they're going to do it again. So, I 24 understand it's a U.S. process, but I don't think 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
81 people should be making blind assertions like this is 1
going to not happen over their dead bodies, because it 2
already is happening. And that's all for my comments.
3 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Timothy. All right, 4
Paul Gunter, you should be able to unmute yourself.
5 MR. GUNTER: Hello, this is Paul Gunter of 6
Beyond Nuclear. I'm in Tacoma Park, Maryland. Just 7
to cut to the chase, I've been following the 8
decommissioning issue, as it provides an opportunity 9
for the subsequent license renewal of nuclear power 10 stations. It's been recognized by a federal lab that 11 there are a lot of knowledge gaps, technical, and 12 scientific, in terms of what you -- how much safety 13 margin you have left in these aging nuclear power 14 plants when you want to extend them another 60, to 80 15 years.
16 And one, Pacific Northwest National Lab 17 provided was that the decommissioning process provides 18 an opportunity to harvest strategic materials that 19 could open up analysis to just how aging is affecting 20 nuclear power stations, that you want to project 21 operations another second license renewal for 20 22 years. And if -- I'm wondering if Bruce could tell me 23 right now, we've been going over this issue at a 24 number of decommissioning opportunities.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
82 And we don't seem to see the resources, or 1
the scheduling happening for harvesting materials from 2
decommissioning nuclear power plants who have 3
notorious embrittled reactor pressure vessels. And 4
this is the opportunity that Palisades provides, and 5
Bruce, if you could just give us an idea of how much 6
money is currently available for strategic harvesting 7
from reactor pressure vessels.
8 MR. WATSON: Okay. Mr. Gunter, I 9
appreciate your question. As usual, Mr. Gunter, and 10 I
have had numerous conversations about this 11 particular issue at a variety of public meetings. And 12 the key thing here I think is that the licensees for 13 the most part are cooperating with the industry. And 14 by that I mean NRC, and the Electric Power Research 15 Institute for doing testing, and taking samples of the 16 plants, and having them analyzed for the aging 17 management issues.
18 In particular I know the NRC collected a 19 number of electrical cables that were first available 20 at Oyster Creek so we could do the analysis on those.
21 However, I know there was coupons, and other samples 22 taken from the Zion plant, which is at the final 23 stages of decommissioning, and those are being 24 analyzed by, I believe the Electric Power Research 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
83 Institute. So, the industry is taking on that issue 1
because they also want to prove that these plants are 2
safe for the long term also.
3 So, their program in concert with the 4
NRC's selective program for aging management, we do 5
collect data on it. I don't have a budget number, I 6
think to your specific question about funding. But I 7
do know we do fund quite a bit of research in this 8
area. I know we also talk with the international 9
programs in other countries about their analysis, and 10 collecting samples from their plants that they have 11 shut down.
12 So, we also are creating databases for 13 this information. So, I'm sorry, I don't have a 14 specific number for the budget that's being used in 15 this area. But I can assure everybody that between 16 the NRC and the Electric Power Research Institute, 17 this issue is being addressed, but it does take time 18 to have these types of samples analyzed. If they come 19 from real components, you have to wait until the 20 plant's shut down to collect them, so it takes time.
21 But I agree with Mr. Gunter in the need to 22 do that type of program, and it is underway both by 23 the NRC in selected areas, along with the Electric 24 Power Research Institute, as I said, who is the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
84 industry's research arm, and independent agency, I 1
guess I'll call it our non-profit group that does that 2
type of work. So, thank you for your question.
3 MS. LOPAS: Okay, there were a couple 4
people that were on the phone that had raised their 5
hand to speak, and we accidentally unmuted you, and 6
then we disabled your microphone. So, if you were 7
sitting here on the phone, and you heard that your 8
microphone was enabled, and then all of a sudden it 9
wasn't, go ahead, and press star five again. Just to 10 let you know, we're not trying to cut you off, there 11 was a little miscommunication between myself, and 12 somebody who is helping me out on Teams here.
13 Okay, great, I see the two phone numbers 14 popped up, thank you guys both. Okay, so we are 15 approaching 8:00 o'clock, we're going to take the 16 three comments that we have here in Teams, and then 17 Shaun, I'll hand it back to you to see if there's any 18 new comments in the room. But I'm going to ask that 19 there'll be no more Teams raising of hands besides the 20 folks that have already had their hands raised.
21 So, Eric Dawson, I'm going to allow your 22 microphone. Give it a second Eric, there you go.
23 MR. DAWSON: Hi, can you hear me?
24 MS. LOPAS: We can, yes.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
85 MR. DAWSON: Hi, my name is Eric Dawson, 1
I'm from Group Nuclear New York. I'll try to be 2
brief. As we all know, building a new nuclear power 3
plant is a long, drawn out process, as is its 4
decommissioning. Inflation driven by energy price 5
heights is at a 40 year high, and the demand to reduce 6
carbon emissions is at an all-time high. Meanwhile 7
nuclear power is obviously the most reliable form of 8
zero emission energy, and it has provided the vast 9
majority of zero emission electricity in Michigan.
10 The cheapest
- policy, unlike 11 decommissioning to minimize carbon emission, and 12 minimize electricity prices is simply to not shut down 13 any fully operational zero emission power plants like 14 Palisades. The Biden administration is pro nuclear, 15 Holtec wants to reactivate Palisades, and Governor 16 Whitmer supports them. For these reasons, the 17 decommission process of Palisades should be delayed.
18 Thank you.
19 MS. LOPAS: Okay, thank you. I'm going to 20 go ahead, and enable the microphone of I believe it 21 was 4513, the last digits of 4513. And make sure you 22 unmute yourself -- yeah, we can hear you.
23 MS. CUMBOW: My name is Kay Cumbow, and 24 I'm a concerned citizen in Michigan, and I live in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
86 Brown City Michigan, or in the area of Brown City, 1
Michigan. And had a couple questions for staff, which 2
was when are written comments due? And also will a 3
record of this meeting be available, and how will we 4
be notified of that?
5 Also then I wanted to say if I understood, 6
I think it was Timothy, if I understood him correctly, 7
he indicated that Canada had already barged lethal 8
irradiated fuel on the Great Lakes. And if so, did 9
they so secretly? Because I'd appreciate knowing the 10 source. Because I think that all residents of the 11 Great Lakes need to know that. So, I wanted to say 12 that Palisades has a very bad history on safety 13 issues.
14 Both with worker contamination, and lack 15 of safety culture. In the early 1970s, also the core 16 barrel moved, the internals of the reactor. The plant 17 was online as much as it was offline the first -- in 18 the early years of Palisades. So, that's not very 19 economic at all. And they were talking about testing 20 the coupons, there's only one coupon left in 21 Palisades, and they will not take it out to test it.
22 And we would love them to take it out, and 23 test it, it's just they used them all up so quickly, 24 and Palisades was declared so embrittled that it was 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
87 supposed to be shut during the 1990s, and they just 1
kept running it without checking the coupon. So, that 2
would be a great idea to check that. I also wanted to 3
say that it's crazy to attempt to restart this plant.
4 It's long been known as one of the two 5
worst embrittled reactors in the world. Also when 6
this plant was sold to Entergy, there was an agreement 7
with the Michigan Public Service Commission to fix a 8
series, a lot of very serious safety issues. And that 9
list was just thrown out the window. So, this 10 reactor, also I wanted to say that this reactor, when 11 operating, like all nuclear reactors, releases 12 radionuclides, and radioactive substances into the 13 air, and into the water.
14 And many of those bioaccumulate in the 15 food chain, and that includes algae, and that includes 16 garden vegetables, and animals, and animals that we 17 eat. So, if people go deer hunting, perhaps there is 18 some of those deer. Some of those concentrate tens of 19 thousands of times, some of them hundreds of thousands 20 of times. Humans are at the top of the food chain, I 21 wanted to know if Lake Michigan will be checked 22 immediately outside of the plant, and also immediately 23 upstream, and downstream to be checked for radioactive 24 contamination.
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88 And I wanted to say that nuclear power is 1
not clean, or safe. Benjamin Sovacool has done some 2
very good reports on the whole front end of the 3
nuclear fuel chain, on uranium mining, and milling, 4
and processing. That's all powered by coal, and it's 5
highly contaminated, including in the Great Lakes.
6 From the uranium mining in Elliot Lake, Ontario, but 7
also in Detroit, and other places in Michigan, and the 8
Great Lakes where secretive research, and work for the 9
DOE was conducted.
10 Uranium fires broke out in these places, 11 workers worked in these places with uranium dust in 12 their work place, and --
13 MS. LOPAS: Kay, I'm going to have to stop 14 you there, because we're at four minutes, and I want 15 to give Marlayna, or Shaun a chance to answer when are 16 comments due, and how can you access the transcript of 17 tonight's meeting. Okay, thanks.
18 MS. CUMBOW: Thank you.
19 MR. ANDERSON: I'll give Marlayna the 20 opportunity.
21 MS. DOELL: Hi, this is Marlayna Doell, 22 again, I'm the project manager for Palisades at the 23 NRC. Comments on the PSDAR are due by December 27th 24 of this year. Any comments submitted on the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
89 regulations.gov site are available on that site, and 1
can be viewed as soon as they're submitted. A 2
transcript of this meeting will be included with the 3
meeting summary, which we'll be putting together.
4 And that will all be publicly available, 5
and also distributed via the Palisades Listserv 6
distribution, which is something that you can sign up 7
for on the NRC's website. It takes a couple of steps, 8
it's hard to walk through without showing you, if 9
anyone needs help joining the Listserv, I'm happy to 10 help, reach out to me after the meeting, and I can 11 walk you through joining that site, and you will be on 12 the list for not just this meeting summary, but any 13 NRC correspondence that is sent out to the Palisades 14 site.
15 MS. LOPAS: Thank you Marlayna. Okay, I 16 have one more phone commenter here, somebody with the 17 phone number last four digits 1375. You should be 18 able to speak.
19 MS. McCOMB: That is me, I am Shawn 20 McComb. I am calling as a concerned citizen, I live in 21 Kalamazoo, Michigan, my mother lives in South Haven, 22 Michigan. I'm calling to say my comment. I agree 100 23 percent that nuclear energy is not clean. First of 24 all, we're risking contamination of one of the largest 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
90 fresh water aquifers in the world, the Great Lakes.
1 Putting nuclear coolant, using the lakes as nuclear 2
coolant increases the temperature of the lakes.
3 Affects the fisheries, so that we are less 4
likely to have the fish for our economy with regards 5
to having people come to fish. Why are we risking one 6
of the largest water aquifers in the world with 7
possible radiation contamination, which could last 8
generations? So, there are a lot of alternatives, we 9
could use the waves, there's technology to use the 10 waves on lakes, and on rivers, and on oceans.
11 There's technology to get energy that way.
12 There's geothermal, there's solar, there's a lot of 13 different possibilities for getting energy, including 14 some things we just don't need to have energy for that 15 we could be using our own personal energy for. I mean 16 little things that could make the difference. But I 17 know that's neither here, nor there, I am against the 18 recommissioning of Palisades because of its history of 19 poor safety.
20 There have been many -- there have been 21 physicians in the area who said they would never even 22 swim in the water near there, and maybe not in the 23 Great Lakes. So, that is my comment.
24 MS. LOPAS: Okay, thank you Shawn. Okay, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
91 even though I said no more hands please, now I really 1
mean it. No more hands, don't make me take out my mom 2
voice here at work. So, we're going to take these 3
last two comments here on Teams, and then I'm going to 4
go back to the room to check with Shaun to see if 5
there's any new last final comments in the room.
6 So, let me go ahead, and allow the mic of 7
this phone number 8106, the last four digits. You 8
should be able to unmute yourself. Hold on a second, 9
yeah Shaun?
10 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, just after this last 11 comment, what we would like to do, is we do want to 12 provide a summary for everyone, just want to have 13 everyone aware of what we heard, and what we want to 14 bring back, and then we'll close out the meeting. But 15 go ahead Sarah.
16 MS. LOPAS: Yeah, sounds good. Okay, 17 8106, did you get yourself all unmuted?
18 MR. MONTGOMERY: Yes, can you hear me?
19 MS. LOPAS: We can, go ahead.
20 MR. MONTGOMERY: Hello, here's my comment.
21 My name is Paul Montgomery, I am a mechanical, and an 22 aerospace engineer, I have a PHD from Stanford 23 University. I don't work in, or for the nuclear 24 industry, and I live in the bay area. And I'm 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
92 speaking for myself, and for all of our children. I 1
want to make the following points.
2 When nuclear plants are closed, they are 3
replaced by fossil fuels. One can look at the example 4
of Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant in New York about 5
15 months ago, that's exactly what happened. The 6
history is there. Secondly, the Palisades plant I 7
believe is completely safe. It has some nuclear fuel, 8
the used nuclear fuel is stored onsite even for 9
extended periods, and it's completely safe.
10 In the history of nuclear power, no one 11 has ever been hurt, and this is fuel for future 12 generations of nuclear power plants. The latest IPCC 13 WG3 climate report states that a 90 percent increase 14 in nuclear capacity is needed by 2050 to limit global 15 warming by 1.5 degrees. And lastly, removing base 16 load plants like nuclear plants in favor of so called 17 renewables leads inevitably to the sort of instability 18 that we're seeing in California, and Texas, and 19 Europe.
20 So, I ask you to follow the science, and 21 the relative benefits of nuclear over all other types 22 of energy. And for all of these reasons I would like 23 to state my support for restarting the plant. Thank 24 you for your time.
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93 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you Sarah. What we'd 1
like to do is have Bruce provide a little summary of 2
what we've learned today, and what we heard from 3
everyone who provided their comments.
4 MR. WATSON: Yes, thank you, this is Bruce 5
Watson again.
6 MS. LOPAS: Hang on a second, wait, hang 7
on, sorry guys, I apologize, I was muted, and I was 8
talking and you'd think a facilitator knows better.
9 I'm sorry, we have Jim Hopf, and that is our last 10 comment here. So, Jim, you should be able to unmute 11 yourself.
12 MR. HOPF: Can you hear me?
13 MS. LOPAS: Yes, we can, go ahead Jim.
14 MR. HOPF: Thanks. My name is Jim Hopf, 15 I'm with Generation Atomic, a grassroots pro-nuclear 16 power organization. I'm asking NRC to do everything 17 it can to facilitate restarting the Palisades plant.
18 This is in line with NRC's mandate under the Atomic 19 Energy Act to serve the general welfare of the public.
20 Resuming operations of Palisades will significantly 21 reduce future CO2 emissions, and air pollution, and 22 will enhance the reliability of the regional grid.
23 It will save a large number of high paying 24 jobs in the local area. It will also probably reduce 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
94 future power costs. A majority of the people and 1
political leaders in the area support the restarting 2
of the plant. Thank you.
3 MS. LOPAS: Okay, Shaun, sorry about that.
4 Thank you for your comment.
5 MR. WATSON: Yeah, thank you, Sarah. This 6
is Bruce Watson again. I thought I'd just provide a 7
few high level comments, or summaries that we heard 8
from the comments tonight. Overall, there were 24 9
comments presented by various individuals both in here 10 in the room in person, and on the computer. The first 11 one I heard, first comment that we've heard, there's 12 numerous comments to keep the plant shutdown, but also 13 comments to encourage the restart of the plant.
14 I'm just going to repeat that the NRC is 15 a safety regulator. We don't make any decisions on 16 the restart of the plant, other than it has to be done 17 safely, along with decommissioning, we ensure it is 18 done safely. Department of Energy is the promoter of 19 energy in the country, so they're the ones who are 20 entertaining this recent policy act that came out.
21 There was concerns about the decommissioning trust 22 fund here at Palisades, cost overruns.
23 And then a potential need to strengthen 24 the regulations. Another area was the concerns about 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
95 the Palisades deferring plant maintenance, and some 1
modifications, and I'm just going to comment that if 2
the plant is to restart, it would have to be done 3
safely. So, all those maintenance, and modifications 4
would likely have to be fixed before the NRC would 5
relicense the facility.
6 Concerns about ground water monitoring, 7
and the cleanup of the site, those will be described 8
in the license termination plan in very good detail.
9 That will also be a document the public can comment 10 on, and opportunity for hearing because the license 11 termination plan is a license amendment. I heard some 12 concerns about the safety of the decommissioning, and 13 the overall inspection program that the NRC conducts 14 during decommissioning.
15 I'll just comment that we have a dedicated 16 reactor decommissioning inspection program. It's 17 being implemented, and you can see right now that we 18 are here frequently, even though the resident 19 inspector just left, we are here frequently, and it's 20 based on the activities that do go on at the site.
21 And we have frequent communications, both Marlayna and 22 Rhex with the licensee, on what are the plans, meeting 23 plans, and longer term plans, so we can plan those 24 inspections.
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96 One of the things that has been brought up 1
is harvesting of strategic materials, specifically 2
vessel embrittlement has been brought up numerous 3
times tonight. I'm sure the NRC is monitoring that 4
situation, and looking at that strategically, and with 5
our technical people, and engineering people to make 6
sure the reactor vessel, pressure vessel is safe to 7
continue operations should that decision be made.
8 And then lastly I heard concerns about the 9
plant effluents on the environment, and the Great 10 Lakes. I can confirm that the Canadians did authorize 11 barging of large components, such as steam generators 12 on the Great Lakes. I don't know about spent fuel, 13 because I know I was talking with the U.S.
14 representative for that area of northern Michigan a 15 number of years ago when the Canadians proposed that.
16 So, I don't know if they really ever did 17 it, but I
know they approved that type of 18 transportation. So, with that, those are the high 19 level comments. I'm sure I can't go back into any 20 details at this time with the time constraints we have 21 on the meeting, so I want to thank you for coming in 22 tonight. And I'll hand it back to Shaun.
23 MR. ANDERSON: I just want to thank 24 everybody for allowing us to come out tonight, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
97 also thank you for being courteous, and providing 1
everyone enough time to provide their responses. But 2
with that, we'll adjourn the meeting. Thank you.
3 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 4
off the record at 8:10 p.m.)
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