ML20199F243
| ML20199F243 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Braidwood  |
| Issue date: | 06/13/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#386-804 OL, NUDOCS 8606240235 | |
| Download: ML20199F243 (104) | |
Text
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ORIGIN AL O
U1NITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY CONhMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO:
BRAIDWOOD STATION 50-456/457-OL UNITS 1 & 2 COMMONWEALTH EDISON COMPANY (EVIDENTIARY HEARING) 9 LOCATION:. J0LIET, ILLINDIS PAGES: 4178-4279 DATE:
FRIDAY, JUNE 13, 1986 gat 10\\
i Q
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
444 E c Yase = t g!;8624027,aoosmnoacwocoog'g6 Washington,
.C. 20001 T
(202) 347-3700 NATIONW1DE COVERACE
4178 O
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _x 5
In the Matter of:
6
(Braidwood Station, Units 1 8
and 2)
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _X 9
10 Page:
4178 - 4279 11 College of St. Francis 500 North Wilcox 12 Joliet, Illinois
?
13 Friday, June 13, 1986.
14 The hearing in the above-entitled matter reconvened 15 at 9:00 A. M.
16 17 BEFORE:
18 JUDGE HERBERT GROSSMAN, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 19 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D. C.
20 JUDGE RICHARD F. COLE, Member, 21 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 22 Washington, D. C.
23 JUDGE A. DIXON CALLIHAN, Member, Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 24 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Comr ission Washington, D. C.
APPEARANCES:
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On behalf of the Applicant:
2 i
MICHAEL I. MILLER, ESQ.
3 ELENA Z.
KEZELIS, ESQ.
Isham, Lincoln & Beale 4
Three First National Plaza Chicago, Illinois 60602 5
On behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory 6
Commission Staf f:
7 ELAINE I. CHAN, ESQ.
GREGORY ALAN BERRY, ESQ.
8 U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 7335 Old Georgetown Road 9
Bethesda, Maryland 20014
/
10 On behalf of the Inte rvenors:
4 11 ROBERT GUILD, ESQ.
12
(
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 i
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TESTIMONY OF RICHARD ALLEN SNYDER 2
DIRECT EXAMINATION PAGE BY MR. MILLER:
3 (Continuing.)
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
The hearing is reconvened.
2 This is the 20th day of hearing; and we left off 3
yesterday with Mr. Miller conducting further --
4 conducting Direct Examination of Mr. Snyder.
5 Mr. Snyder, you remain under oath; and Mr. Miller 6
will continue.
7 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, before I do, I would 8
just like to state for the record that I have returned 9
to the Court Reporter the marked copy of Applicant's 10 Exhibit 38 and have distributed copies of that exhibit 11 to the Board and the parties.
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Fine.
O 13 MR. MILLER:
Good morning, Mr. Snyder.
14 THE WITNESS:
Good morning.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 (Con tin uing. )
17 BY MR. MILLER 18 Q
Mr. Snyder, I would like to turn your attention now to 19 the time period in the end of March of 1985, and 20 specifically Thursday, March 28, 1985.
21 On the afternoon of that day, did you have a 22 discussion -- what started as a discussion -- with Mr.
23 Saklak?
24 A
Yes, sir.
(~}
25 0
Would you tell the Board and the parties as best you can
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what occurred that day?
2 A
Well, I had earlier in the day written an ICR for a weld 3
machine I had performed a calibration on that was out of 4
tolerance per our procedure and I had processed the 5
pape r work.
6 The ICR eventually ended up in my Supervisor's 7
hands, Rick Saklak; and that afternoon he came back and 8
told me that -- well, this was a generic ICR more or 9
less.
10 These things were written by myself and they were 11 easily dispositioned by the engineers and they were 12 closed by myself.
That was Revision C of the 4.9.1.
13 Revision D was in the process of being revised, 14 which would have took the weld machines out of my i
15 calibration program, so I wouldn't have to look at them I
16 any longer.
17 Everyone knew this revision was in the process but 18 it was not finalized yet, so the Supervisor came back to 19 me and we started a discussion, that we knew how the 20 engineers was going to disposition this ICR.
We had had 21 several before.
22 My lead, Ray Nemeth, was setting beside me; and O
23 Rick Saklak -- his idea of this ICR was that I could 24 close it out without an engineering disposition, because
}
we knew that they were going to accept it and there was l
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1 not going to be any re-work involved --
2 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I want to object.
3 The witness is stating Mr. Saklak's belief, Mr.
4 Saklak's understanding; and, for clarity, it would be 5
helpful if the witness would state what the basis is for 6
that belief when he states it.
7 I gather it's probably something that was said to 8
him; but 9
MR. MILLER:
Well, I --
10 MR. GUILD:
-- I would object that the 11 statement on its face appears to be hearsay; and if it's 12 going to establish what Mr. Saklak thought or believed, 13 there should, at least, be a foundation.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, it seems to me that 15 the witness is trying to be responsive to the question; 16 and any deficiencies that you see in his statement you 17 can correct on Cross Examination.
18 MR. GUILD:
I unde rstand, Mr. Chairman.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
He is giving his 20 understanding of what the positions of the persons were 21 at that meeting.
22 I will instruct him to say that Mr. Saklak believed 4
23 something is, really, not within your competence.
24 You can indicate that, in your opinion, and you 25 believe that everybody -- you believed at the time that Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 everybody's opinion was such and such; but to state as a 2
fact what Mr. Saklak believed, unless you are going to i
~
3 say that he told you that he believed that, you know, l
4 would not really be proper.
l l
5 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, I am sorry.
I don't i
6 mean to interrupt.
7 I was just going to say that I asked Mr. Snyder 8
quite a broad question, in the expectation that he would 9
give his full recollection.
10 I fully intended to go back and then try and find 11 out what the basis for these beliefs were; but it seems a
j j
12 to me that Mr. Snyder has already demonstrated that he Q
13 has a pretty good memory on many of these things and I 14 thought it would be helpful to the Board if he were able I
15 to tell in his own words what happened.
j 16 Then we would go back, really, and find out through l
4 i
{
17 further questions, which I, as I say, fully intend to I
18 ask, as to the basis for his beliefs and so on expressed u
1 19 in the answer.
i 20 MR. GUILD:
My only point, Judge -- and I l
21 appreciate the witness being candid in providing his i
22 recollection; but I have to prepare Cross Examination of 1
23 the witness from what I hear him say on the stand.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
i 25 MR. GUILD:
From what I listen to and what I i
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1 hear him say, if he relates in what he is saying as to 2
what the source of his understanding and belief is, that 3
provides an invaluable aid to me in preparing to cross 4
examine.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes, absolutely.
And we, 6
certainly, shouldn't let in incompetent testimony on the i
^
7 basis of its being supplied a foundation later on.
]
8 So with what the witness has heard, please try and 9
indicate what happened and what you directly knew about 10 the situation, not speculation about what someone else
)
11 believed.
12 If you want to say it was your opinion at the time 13 that someone believed something, well, that's fine; but J
14 you can't state as a fact what someone else believed, q
l 15 because you can't read their mind.
1 1
16 So continue.
}
17 A
(Continuing.)
Okay.
Mr. Saklak did say to my lead and l
18 myself that we knew how the engineer was going to 19 disposition this ICR.
20 He directed me to close the ICR out without an i
21 engineering disposition, which I told him I could not do 22 per our procedure or per general QC practice.
The ICR 23 had to go to engineering, so they could make their l
24 evaluation, no matte r what.
[ }
25 We tried to persuade him, my lead and myself, that l
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1 it had to go this route, the paper work; and he just did 2
not see it that way in this case.
3 So he walked away, went to Tony simile's office,
]
4 our general supervisor.
5 I went to Bob Seltmann's office, our QA Manager, to 6
back up my statements to make sure I was right and that 7
something hadn't changed suddenly that I didn't know 8
about.
9 So Mr. Seltmann agreed that I was right, that I 10 could not sign this thing off without an engineering 11 disposition.
I could not disposition the thing myself, 12 the ICR, myself, and sign it off.
That wasn't my job.
13 So I felt comfortable with my stand on the issue.
14 And before I left, Mr. Simile came into the office, 15 Mr. Seltma.n's office, and he started talking to Mr.
16 Seltmann about the same ICR.
"Couldn't we get this 17 thing closed out, because the procedure was being 18 changed or because another walding procedure overlapped 19 my calibration procedure on weld machines?"
20 But Mr. Seltmann, again, told him that I had to 21 write the ICR.
It had to go through its normal 22 channels, and that's all there was to it.
23 I asked both of the men if they would get Mr.
24 Saklak into the office to straighten him out, because I 25 had to work for the man and I didn't want him to be
(~))
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under the impression that I was wrong in that case and 2
that -- I just wanted him to be straightened out.
3 Mr. Simile said, no, that Rick was too hot right 4
now; and that was the end of it, and I walked out of the 5
office.
6 And it wasn't the end of the whole issue, but I 7
went back to my --
8 MR. MILLER:
L e t me --
9 THE WITNESS:
Excuse me.
10 MR. MILLER:
Let me break your answer at that 11 point, if I might.
12 BY MR. MILLER:
{}
13 Q
I believe you did say, just before Mr. Guild made his 14 objections, that everyone knew that engineering would 15 disposition the ICR or words to that effect.
16 First of all, what was your personal expectation as 17 to what the disposition of the ICR would be?
18 A
Well, I had written several others on weld machines, 19 ICR's, prior to this one.
20 And the engineers were accepting them, because 100 21 percent weld inspection was being performed in the 22
' field; and this was acceptable to my management, because 23 we had discussed this when these first started coming up 24 end --
(}
25 Q
With whom had you had those discussions about accepting Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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these weld machines?
2 A
Well, f rom my Supervisor up to Tony simile.
Tony was in 3
charge of the welding end when he first came on site.
4 And to buy something off like that, you know, you 5
want your management to be behind you, because I didn't 6
want to take that responsibility on my own.
7 Q
All right.
How much prior to March 28, 1985, did you 8
have these discussions with Mr. Simile and, I assume, 9
Mr. Saklak, from your prior answer?
10 A
Well, I couldn't even say honestly.
11 I was certified in October.
Immediately, I am 12 sure, we started writing ICR's on weld machines when O
13 they came due.
14 The problem with writing up a weld machine, it's 15 such a -- it's -- it doesn't make a whole lot of sense 16 to calibrate a weld machine, is what it comes down to, 17 because that welder in the field is going to turn that 18 thing wherever he wants to set it.
19 My only check of that machine was to make sure if 20 you set it on 100 amps, it was getting 100 amps or 21 within two amps either way; but, again, that welder will 22 crank that thing wherever he wants it.
23 So they have grids out there, what they call a 24 grid, which there is no calibration at all performed on.
{~}
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wherever they want to set their amps.
2 So everyone determined that it was something I 3
didn't need to be doing as far as calibrating, because 4
it was just creating paper that wasn't needed in the 5
end.
6 It was being bought off per the weld inspections, 7
so --
8 Q
You say, " bought off."
9 Would you --
10 A
It was being accepted per the 100 percent weld 11 inspection being performed in the field.
12 Q
Mr. Snyder, I think you said that Revision D of the O
13 Procedure 4.9.1, which was in process at that point in
~
14 time, had changed the requirement for calibration of 15 these weld machines.
16 What was the nature of the change?
17 A
Well, it just removed them from the Paragraph 4.4 of the 18 procedure.
It no longer required us to perform a check.
19 At least, it didn't list them under that paragraph.
20 Q
All right.
Was this one of the suggestions to the 21 changed procedure that you had made?
22 A
Well, I cannot recall that, because this thing was -- it 23 was going to be taken out long before I set down and 24 made my corrections.
}
That was -- that was the intent of the management, 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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to get it out of the procedure;.and it was discussed 2
months bef, ore the procedure was finally changed.
3 Q
All right.
I believe that you testified previously that 4
you had had a discussion with Mr. Simile and with Mr.
5 Saklak about accepting the engineering disposition on 6
the ICR's that you had written on welding machines.
7 Did they initiate that discussion or did you have a 8
question and go to them for their guidance?
9 A
Well, I think what happened, I actually rejected a few 10 ICR's, reissued them back to engineering, because they 11 were making that statement.
12 Because a statement like that on an ICR, we felt, 13 initially, that the owner, CECO, should be involved and 14 agree with that, maybe, and it should be upgraded to an 15 NCR, so --
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
What statement 17 on the ICR?
18 THE WITNESS:
That welds -- all welds -- were 4
19 inspected 100 percent by QC Inspectors in the field, so, 20 therefore, they were accepting the welds and there was i
21 no amperage problem hoticed in the weld, a lack of j
22 fusion or whatever because of an out-of-calibration, l
23 calibrated, weld machine.
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
All right.
Continue.
I 25 didn't mean to interrupt.
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A (Contin uing. )
So it was widely discussed after we 2
started re-issuing an ICR back to engineering, they 3
would come upstairs and want to know some input into it.
4 You know, we discuss these things back and forth; and my 5
lead, Ray Nemeth, we would go to him and we would go to 6
Rick and we would go to Tony.
7 I don't think we all ever set down in a meeting and 8
said, " Hey, are we going to accept these this way?"
9 It's just that you walk from office to office or you 10 catch him there in the hallway and you discuss it.
11 You know, it wasn't no special meeting that we had.
12 I know that we were all involved in this decision.
13 BY MR. MILLER:
14 Q
And after your discussions with Mr. Saklak and Mr.
15 Simile, were you satisfied in terms of accepting the 16 engineering disposition?
17 A
Yes, sir.
That's the reason we went to them.
They were 18 buying -- using, accepting them as the QC Inspector, 19 weld inspectors, performing the inspection in the field.
20 0
When the QC Inspectors performed their in-process weld 21 inspections in the field, were there any calibrated 22 instruments used in the field which measured the amps or 23 the volts of the -- used in the welding operation?
24 A
Well, when the QC Inspector does his weld inspection, 25 that's after the fact, that the weld is already
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pe rf ormed.
2 Now, he is not standing over the welder and 3
watching him weld that hanger or checking his amps, like 4
you would in piping, in my experience with piping.
l 5
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
It's not an in-process l
6 inspection?
/
7 A
(Continuing.)
Right, that's true.
But there was an 8
inspection being performed by John Miner, our -- his 9
title is Weld-In-Process Inspector.
10 He would periodically -- the welder -- the welders 11 have to be checked within, I think, a six-month period, 12 once eve ry six months by John.
He oversees their 13 welding process, checks their amps with a calibrated 14 in-line amp meter off of the machine and he does his 15 inspection that way periodically.
16 BY MR. MILLER:
17 Q
And you are responsible for the calibration inspection 18 of those amp meters?
19 A
Of the amp meter, yes.
20 Q
Now, I think in your last answer here you said, "We 21 discussed this with Mr. Saklak and Mr. Simile."
22 Who else besides yourself?
23 A
Ray Nemeth, my lead.
I 24 You know, we were told time and again to go through
{}
the channels, which was your lead to the supervisor on 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 up.
And Ray set right beside me.
He was getting 2
heavily involved in calibration at the time, because he 3
had just become the lead.
I don't know exactly when, 4
some time early '85.
5 So he was very involved with the situation.
6 0
When you first raised this issue, you say in kind of an 7
informal way with Mr. Saklak, Mr. Simile, were they 8
responsive, were they impatient?
l 9
A You arc talking of the --
10 0
As to whether to accept the engineering disposition.
11 A
Oh, they were helpful.
It was a business thing that we 12 all had to agree on.
That's just the way it is.
13 If they wouldn't have agreed or if someone had a 14 strong argument, I am sure that we would have discussed 15 it further; but I think everyone agreed, especially 16 after you hear Tony Simile, the general supervisor, 17 saying -- he was a Level 3 in charge of weld 18 inspections.
19 He was very informed on the welding end of it, 20 which I am not, so that was all I needed as an 21 inspector.
22 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
I am not sure I 23 understand what we are talking about now.
24 You wrote some ICR's that went to engineering and 25 they dispositioned them on the basis of the fact that, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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even though the instruments may not have been 2
calibrated, the welds would be checked 100 percent in a 3
reinspection program; is.that it?
4 THE WITNESS:
They would have been initially 5
inspected by the weld inspector, not a reinspection.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
They would have been 7
initially inspected; so the welds themselves would be 8
proper welds?
9 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Notwithstanding that the 11 instrument was out of calibration.
12 Now, do I understand corrcctly that you then had a O
13 problem with that kind of dispositioning, that you 14 didn't think that might -- that you thought it might be 15 inappropriate and would send it back to engineering; is 16 that w at we are talking about now?
17 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, because I believe the 18 way the NCR and ICR procedure was at the time -- and still is -- that you cannot accept work as is on an ICR,
'o 20 you know, it has to be, upgraded to an NCR.
That was the i
21 initial problem, I guess, that we had, that the owner 22 should be involved in thad decision buying off these 23-welds; but it -- the whole deal with the weld machines 24 was, like I explained earlier, that it was determined 25 that it wasn't required to even calibrate the things,
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1 although my procedure told me to.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
In other words, let 3
me understand this correctly, though.
4 The reason you thought it had to be sent back and 5
an NCR written up on it was because this was a, 6
basically, generic disposition of these matters?
7 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
That it really called for an 9
NCR because it waen't just an individual weld you are 10 talking about; it was a whole procedure by which these 11 ICR's were being dispositioned on an as-is basis, that 12 is, using the weld inspection itself rather than any 13 correction in the calibration problem to disposition 14 these individual ICR's?
15 Is that basically what you are saying?
16 THE WITNESS:
That's correct.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, fine.
I am sorry.
18 BY MR. MILLER:
19 Q
Now, let's return to the afternoon of March 28th.
I 20 think where we left it was that you had lef t Mr.
1 21 Seltmann's office and -- I have said that this was the 22 af te rnoon.
23 About what time of day was it, actually, do you 24 recall?
(}
25 A
4:30, 4:40 I think my memo says, right around there.
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I think we quit at 5:30 that day.
)
2 O
What happened then, Mr. Snyder?
3 A
Well, after I was satisfied with Mr. Seltmann's answer, 4
I went back to my seat, my desk, which.-- my lead was 5
setting there beside me; and in five minutes or so, Mr.
6 Saklak came back again to my corner and -- in fact, I 7
believe I was standing up, leaning backwards against my 8
desk with Ray Nemeth standing beside me; and Mr. Saklak 9
came down facing us and stopped about four or five feet 10 in front of me -- in front of us.
11 And I -- I don't recall how he led up to it, other 12 than what my memo says, that he was, obviously, 13 irritated because I had went to Mr. Seltmann's office to 14 get a correct answer; and I assume after he thought 15 about it -- well, I shouldn't say that.
16 So he proceeded -- he just stood there and he said, 17
" Rick, sometimes -- we are going to go round and round 18 and you make me so pissed off that if beating was legal, 19 you would be dead."
He was standing right there in 20 front of me with his legs spread.
He is a big man, 6-2 21 or 3, I don't know; although I wasn't fearing for my 22 life there, but it's just the words and the action he 23 come about.
24 I said, " Rick, whatever you think you have to do."
)
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1 irritate the man or get smart with the man; but there 2
were several people there and that's all he said and 3
that's all I said.
4 He walked away; and I set down and wrote it down, 5
because I knew my rights as an inspector.
I didn't have 6
to put up with that.
7 So I just -- I knew his attitude, reputation before 8
I had seen him, before that, a few times, and I really, 9
at first, didn't know what I was going to do there.
It 10 was quitting time.
I just sat there and wrote it down 11 to cover myself later.
12 Q
Had you -- you say there were some other individuals who 13 observed this?
14 A
Yes.
15 Q
Do you remember the names of those individuals?
16 A
Well, Ray Nemeth was standing beside me, Tim Stewart was 17 setting close by.
I remember Dan Orsner.
He didn't 18 sign my memo, but he said later that he heard portions 19 of it, but I didn't -- you know, I just -- it was enough 20 that my lead was there, I thought.
I just -- the other 21 people, Tim Stewart said he heard it; and that was it, 22 you know.
23 I just didn't want to take on my own without a 24 witness if I took it any farther than that.
25 Q
After Mr. Saklak left, did you discuss his threat with
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1 any of the other people who were in the room with you?
2 A
My lead was setting right beside me and he was as 3
shocked as I was, really, at what he had said, Rick had 4
said.
5 But, yes, we discussed it, me and him, not about 6
any action that I was going to take, just that, you 7
know, it was kind of a disbelief thing.
Whether he 8
meant it or not, that's what he said; and that wasn't my 9
determination to make, you know, if he meant it or not.
10 Only he knew that; but he did have a reputation for 11 being loud with inspectors and wanting everybody else to 12 hear it, too.
13 So I just felt like what he done was wrong.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
When you say 15 whether he meant it or not, are you referring to what 16 you understood to be a threat of physical force against 17 you?
18 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
20 BY MR. MILLER:
21 Q
I think you said you were shocked.
22 A
Well, you know, in kind of disbelief.
23 Q
I take it nothing like that had ever happened to you 24 before?
25 A
Well, not in this line of work, no, not by my Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 supervisor, not by anyone in this line of work, ' because 2
I was right and he was wrong and that's what it come 3
down to.
4 Rick wasn't the kind of man that liked to be wrong, 5
and that is pretty widely known by the people that 6
worked around him.
7 Q
How soon after -- well, did you -- I think you said you 8
discussed it with your lead.
9 That evening did you discuss it with anyone else?
10 A
I don't recall discussing it that evening.
11 Like I said, it was at quarter till 5:00, it was 12 near quitting time.
We leave at quarter after back 13 then, I think, so it was a half hour left on the job.
14 I don't believe I -- I don't recall discussing it 15 with anyone else that evening.
16 Q
At the end of the workday, did other inspectors begin 17 coming into the room there?
18 A
Well, it was f ull of people by that time of day.
19 There were plenty of people there, yes.
20 Q
Did somebody make known to the other inspectors who came i
21 into the room what had happened between you and Mr.
22 Saklak?
i I
23 A
Well, I suppose.
I really don't recall.
24 You know, stuff like that gets around fast.
When
{)
you have got 50 or 60 people in the room there, I am 25 l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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sure other people heard about it quickly.
Whether 2
through Mr. Stewart or Mr. Marschner or whoever, I don't 3
recall myself telling other people, because it wasn't 4
something I was going to go out and start blabbing to 5
everyone.
I knew it was going to get around and I 6
didn't have to spread it around.
l 7
Q All right.
You then left the jobsite that evening; is 8
that correct?
9 A
Yes, sir.
10 0
When you were at home after work, did you discuss it j
11 with anyone other than your wife?
12 A
No, sir, not that I recall.
(E) 13 O
The next morning what was the start time?
14 A
I believe we were starting at 8:00, maybe 7:00.
I can't 15 recall.
16 Let's see.
It probably was 7:00, but I can't be 17 sure.
I really can't.
I don't recall.
18 0
When you went back to the Braidwood site, did you 19 discuss it with -- you know, your incident with Mr.
20 Saklak -- with anybody else?
21 A
Mr. Nemeth came up to me early that morning and he had, 22 apparently, talked with Mr. Saklak either the night 23 before at quitting time or early that morning.
24 Ray told me that Rick wanted to apologize to me, 25 and I told Ray, you know, that's okay, but it's too
{}
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 late.
I had already made up my mind.
I had thought 2
about this all night, that I was going to go to the NRC 3
office and have a discussion with them, because that was 4
the steps I felt like taking and that was my right to 5
do.
6 And Mr. Saklak did come back and apologize early 7
that morning.
He set down beside me and said he was 8
sorry, he had a bad day; and I told him, I said, "Well, 9
you know, we can all have bad days, but you have got to 10 learn to control it"; and he did have that problem of 11 controlling his temper.
12 I didn't forgive him any more for doing it, for O#
13 apologizing, because I had already determined what I was i
14 going to do.
15 I hadn't discussed it with the NRC inspectors yet, 16 but I was going to early that morning.
17 Q
All right.
Were there other inspectors present when Mr.
18 Saklak made this apology?
19 A
I believe Mr. Nemeth was standing close by behind us; 20 but I don't recall anyone else.
21 Q
Did you, in fact, go to the NRC -- well, how soon after 22 that did you go to the NRC?
1 23 A
It was early.
I would say before 9:00 o' clock I went 24 over there.
(}
25 Q
Did you tell anyone at Comstock management that you were Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
1 ueneva, Illinois eulae 1
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1 going?
2 A
No, sir, the reason being, I think a couple of weeks 3
prior to this incident, Mr. Saklak had been reprimanded 4
with Franco Rolan.
They had both been written up, I 5
guess, because they had got into some kind of heated 6
discussion; and Mr. Saklak had jumped on me once before 7
in front of the whole office for something.
I don't 8
recall what it was now.
It was something to do with my 9
area of inspection, but it was something at that time I 10 didn't think required the response he gave.
11 And I also witnessed him verbally jump all over i
12 another inspector, and I knew his reputation, and the 13 reason I didn't go to management was because he had been 14 let go before and, apparently, management just -- they 15 would tell him to not do it' again and he would be back 16 at it, you know.
4 17 So I just felt strongly about it, that that was the 18 only way to bring this thing out into the open.
19 Q
Did you go over to the NRC by yourself?
i l
20 A
No, sir.
i 21 MR. GUILD:
Now, Mr. Chairman, I anticipate I
22 counsel's next question, which is likely to be who he 23 went with; and the Board should be conscious that there 24 are two March 29th memos.
25 One of those memos, I understand, to memorialize 3
I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 the morning. meeting.
It identifies the participants in 2.
what I understand to be Mr. Snyder's first visit that 3
day only by identifying lette rs, X, A, B, C, et cetera.
4 I understand that to be a grant of confidentiality 5
to those participants.
6 Some -- one or more of those inspectors may be 7
inspectors who have sought and received protection under 8
the Board's protective order, so that the identification 9
of the persons that went with Mr. Snyder is likely to 10 contain confidential information.
11 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, is it necessary for 12 you to get the names or just the number of inspectors at 13 this point?
14 MR. MILLER:
Well, I think it's inevitable 15 that my questions are going to require an identification 16 of the individuals, your Honor.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Now, this, 18 apparently, is an area that you have agreed could be in 19 camera.
20 MR. MILLER:
Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Why don't we at this point 22 then have an in camera transcript, a separate 23 transcript.
I believe everyone in the room has signed 24 an agreement, have they, Mr. Gieseker?
25 MR. MILLER:
Mr. Smith has, also.
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MR. BERRY:
Neither Mr. Little or Mr. Neisler 2
was required in terms of our protective order to sign an 3
affidavit of nondisclosure, although we are bound by the 4
provisions of the protective order.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes, that is correct.
6 Okay.
We are still in the in camera portion and 7
you can continue, Mr. Miller.
8 MR. MILLER:
Thank you.
9 BY MR. MILLER:
10 0
Can you tell me, Mr. Snyder, who it was that went over j
11 with you in the morning to the NRC?
12 A
I cannot remembe r everyone.
I -- simply because I can't 13 remembe r.
I don't want to say, "Well, I think this guy 14 went," but I do remember three gentlemen that went with 15 me.
16 There wa$ five total, I believe, that went with me.
17 and and 18 and I would only be guessing and I don't want to do that 19 on the other two.
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, now, is there a common 21 understanding as to who the others were?
22 MR. MILLER:
Yes, your Honor.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
If there is, you can refresh 24 the witness's recollection.
25 BY MR. MILLER:
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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-sU l
Q Mr. Snyder, I am going to show you an attachment to a 2
March 29, 1985, memorandum from Mr. McGregor and Mr.
3 Shultz, who were NRC resident inspectors at Braidwood, 4
to their supervisors in the Regional Office, Mr. Warnick 5
and Mr. Wild; and an attachment to that document shows a 6
list of names that include yours, and you will see that 7
some of the names have an asterisk next to them and the 8
asterisk says, " Indicates these inspectors first 9
approached the NRC and later returned for the noon l
10 meeting."
11 In addition to the names that you have just thereareasterisksbythenameof]hgghhh 12 identified,
]
13 and 14 Does that refresh your recollection --
15 A
Yes.
16 Q
-- that those men accompanied you as well?
17 A
Yes, $1%".*.:Thoser were the two tI had.sthough't ' a f ew 18 minutes ago, but I couldn't be sure.
19 Q
Did you ask each of the other four individuals to come 20 with you?
21 A
No, sir, I don't recall asking them all.
22 I talked to because he was the man 23 that was taking charge of our union dealings at that 24 time.
25 He set close by me, and I told him I was going, and Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 I cannot recall what his comments was, but that there 2
was a few guys that would go with me.
3 Q
So it was that got the others together?
4 A
They all sit in the same general area and I think by 5
early that morning they knew I was going to report this 6
and they wanted to go to -- well, I think 7
was one of my witnesses; and I possibly could have asked 8
him.
I cannot be sure.
9 Just -- I could have done it on my own, but they 10 had some input that they wanted to give and they gave me 11 support, more or less, as fellow inspectors.
12 0
Right.
And I think you said that was a-13 leader of the union? '-
14 A
Well, he was -- him and
'both were -- trying 15 at the time -- let's see.
This was March.
16 The union was being talked about strongly at that 17 time, I believe, and they both were doing a lot of 18 talking off the job with union officials, I would say; 19 and they were two men that could have gave me support, 20 not union support, but strong support, I would say.
V 21 Q
All right.
Prior to this time hadl and 22 6 ever said that -,had they ever said anything 23 about Mr. Saklak, for example, and his behavior to you?
24 A
No, sir, not that I recall.
25 It was just that everyone in that office knew Mr.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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}
l Saklak's behavior, even management; and anybody that 2
worked there long enough had seen more than I had; and j
3 he just had that reputation amongst inspectors.
J 4
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
By the way, just to clarify 5
something for the record:
6 Before, in answer to a question, you said that you 7
had determined to go to the NRC because Mr. Saklak had 8
other incidents and was let go.
9 I take it you didn't mean that he was fired or i
1 10 terminated?
i 11 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
f
(:)
12 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
No action was taken against 4
l 13 him is what you meant; right?
I
}
14 THE WITNESS:
No action that I seen.
)
15 He may have been -- he may have been talked to by l
16 management; but it was obvious that Rick was under l
17 strain because there was too much work he had to cover.
i j
18 He had -- he was the only supervisor when I hired j
19 in under 60 or 70 people and he was not qualified to 20 cover the areas he was supervising, because per i
21 procedure he was supposed to be certified in the areas 22 which he was supervising, which -- that wasn't j
23 happening; and he just was not qualified to cover those j
24 areas.
25 And one man, I don't believe, can cover all them
{)
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1 areas, anyway; and he just -- he did have too much and 2
he tried to -- he tried to do the job, but it's just 3
physically and mentally, I think, impossible.
It was at 4
the time and still is for one man to cover 60 men, 5
inspectors.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Miller.
7 BY MR. MILLER:
3 a
l 8
Q There did come a time when Mr. Saklak's responsibilities l
9 were reduced while you were there, did there not, Mr.
10 Snyder?
11 A
Yes, sir.
4 12 Q
Do you remember approximately when that took place?
13 A
I think it was prior to our incident.
I am sure the 14 pressure was -- the job was just starting to spread out 15 and more people coming in all the time and he couldn't 16 be all them places that he needed to be, so part of his i
17 duties was taken away and given to someone else.
18 That was probably the best thing that happened for 4
19 him.
t 20 Q
Now --
1 21 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Miller 22 goes forward, if I could suggest a mechanism with l
23 respect to the in camera transcript, if -- once the l
24 transcript is prepared, Counsel could consult?
I i
25 believe we could expurgate the genuinely protected i
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1 information.
Much of this information is not 2
necessarily indeed treated in camera, and if.that would 3
be acceptable to the Board, I would endeavor to work 4
with counsel in trying to do that.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Let's go off the record for 6
a second.
7 (There followed a discussion outside the 8
record.)
9 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Let's go back on the record.
10 We are going to change the procedure.
We won't 11 need a separate transcript for the in camera matters.
12 We will just -.
13 JUDGE COLE:
Let me go off the record a 14 minute.
15 (There followed a discussion outside the 16 record.)
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
We are back on the 18 record for a further discussion.
19 We are not going to separate out initially in 20 camera material.
We are going to put the whole day's I
21 transcript in camera until we receive the copy on the 22 next working day, at which time counsel will review the 23 transcript and make the necessary expurgations or 24 deletions, at which time we will release the expurgated 25 transcript to the public record.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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Ob 1
So that this entire day's proceeding is now not to 2
be released and not to be sent directly to our office 3
but deliver-ed here,on Monday and we will make the 4
required deletions to the appropriate transcripts.
5 Fine.
Now, continue, Mr. Miller.
6 MR. MILLER:
Thank you.
E 7
BY MR. MILLER:
8 0
I take it then, Mr. Snyder, on Friday morning you didn't 9
perform any inspection activities but you and the other j
10 inspectors simply went over to the NRC; is that correct?
11 A
That's correct.
12 Q
Did collect the 'other men and O
13 then tall you they were all ready to go?
j 14 A
Yes.
We all went together;. '
a 15 0
When you got -- where was the NRC quartered?
16 A
That's over in the service building of the plant, in the 17 south end of the building.
18 Q
Who was present when you arrived?
19 A
Mr. McGregor was in his office.
I believe he was busy 20 at the time and we waited.
Maybe not.
Maybe we walked 21 right in.
.l < -
+ > -
d s
22 s.
HA was there.
23 Q
Was he the onJy NRC Inspector present?
24 A
At that time when we first got there, I believe so.
25 Q
Can you tell us what you said to Mr. McGregor?
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1 A
Well, I told him that I needed to talk to him or we 2
needed to talk to him.
I don't remember how I worded 3
that.
4 But he realized we had something on our mind and 5
invited us into his office; and I told him I had a 6
problem with my supervisor, that he threatened me with j
7 words, what I determined a verbal threat; and I 8
proceeded to tell him the story, just like I told here.
9 Q
At some point during your recitation of what had l
10 happened the preceding day did Mr. Shultz appear?
11 A
Yes, sir, he came into the office and set down.
12 Q
Did he hear the whole story from you?
()
13 A
I think Mr. McGregor may have even called him in to be a 14 second to him to hear what was going on, because it 15 wasn't being taped or written down as far as I was aware 16 of.
17 Q
All right.
When you began talking to Mr. McGregor about 18 your problem with Mr. Saklak, had any other inspector 19 made a statement before, before you began, in other 20 words, introducing you, introducing the issue?
l 21 A
It's quite possible that someone else said something 22 before me.
I don't recall that at all.
i 23 You know, I am sure not -- the other five didn't 24 keep quiet the whole time.
[}
I really don't recall what was said prior to what I 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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said.
2 Q
All right.
Do you remembe r somebody saying, in 3
substance, "We were going to have a lot of people come 4
over but we figured it was better to have a small 5
numbe r.
We have about 109 people there now and all are 6
about to walk if conditions remain the same"?
7 A
I do recall that statement.
8 Q
Do you know whether that was made before or after your 9
.tatement?
10 A
It would be a guess.
I couldn't say.
11 Q
Do you remember the name of the individual who made that 12 statement?
13 A
That would be another guess.
I would have a pretty good 14 idea but I didn't read my transcripts in this thing and 15 I am sure it's in there, but I really don't recall.
16 Q
Well, let me again show you this March 29, 1985, 17 memorandum; and I will represent to you that the NRC has 18 its unique coding system to preserve the anonymity of 19 the individuals who are present at this meeting.
20 As you will see, the first entry is attributed to 21 an Inspector X, and I would like you to read that over 22 and then I want to ask you whether you are the Inspector 23 X who made that first statement.
24 A
No, sir, I did not make that statement.
(~
25 Q
All right...Having looked at it, can you tell me now V}
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(
1 whether you can recall who made that statement?
2 A
Well, again, it would be a guess out of two people and I 3
really -- that's all it would be.
I don't know if you 4
are wanting me to guess.
5 Q
No, I don't want you to guess.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, it's not a guess.
7 It's his best recollection of who made the statement.
8 Why don't you tell us who you believe made that 9
statement or which of two individuals, whichever the 10 case is.
11 A
(Continuing.)
That sounds like and if it 12 wasn Y him,*@ wa's N/
13 BY MR. MILLER:
14 Q
Is that because they were involved in the union 15 activities and were taking a leadership role there?
16 A
Well, that is quite possible.
They knew that there was, 17 I say, terrible morale problems from what I had seen 18 since I had been there.
It was -- this was the time to 19 get it out, to make the NRC aware of the problems that 20 was going on at that time.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Well, we are asking you to 22 try to recall who made the statements, not to look at 23 the statement itself and try to speculate as to who 24 might have made it from the statement.
25 Now, you have given us what I believed -- I Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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()
1 understood you to say at first that was your 2
recollection of who made the statement.
3 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Is it; it is?
5 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Now, do you wish to show him 7
who the NRC attributed that statement to you?
8 MR. MILLER:
Yodr Honor, I would be happy to.
9 It's absolutely impossible from this document to know 10 who made that statement in the way that the NRC coded 11 the names.
12 MR. GUILD:
There is no key to the coding.
13 MR. MILLER:
There is no key.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I thought all counsel were 15 apprised of who made that statement.
16 MR. MILLER:
No, sir, no, sir.
17 MR. GUILD:
We don't know.
18 MR. M, ILLER:
Not even the NRC can help us.
19 At least, they couldn't at deposition; and if --
20 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
You mean they have lost the 21 code?
That's what they say, they can't locate it?
22 MR. GUILD:
I don't think they ever maintain 23 they had a code, Judge -- a key to the code.
24 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, as further 25 explanation to the Board -- and, perhaps,. I can display Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 (312) 232-0262
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1 this to you -- as you can see, the first statement is 2
attributed to Inspector X.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
4 MR. MILLER:
The next statement is also 5
attributed to Inspector X, and yet it is clear from 6
prior testimony that it is Mr. Snyder talking.
7 Then there is another inspector identified and then 8
we get to another page and there are Inspectors A, B,
C, 9
D, E,
F and G, seven different inspectors, but only five 10 went over.
j 11 MS. CHAN:
Six, six.
12 MR. BERRY:
Six.
O 13 MR. MILLER:
I beg your pardon, six.
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
So we are not really that 15 interested in who they were; but, I guess -- well, l
16 perhaps we are.
At least we will get some confirmation 4
17 as to whether they made those statements.
18 BY MR. MILLER:
19 Q
Now, Mr. Snyder, the next paragraph in this March 29th 20 memorandum -- and I will leave that copy with you, sir.
21 Off the record.
22 (There followed a discussion outside the 23 record.)
24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Why don't we take a 25 seven-minute break right now.
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1 MR. MILLER:
All right.
2 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which 3
the hearing was resumed as follows:)
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We are back in session.
5 Mr. Mille r.
\\
6 BY MR. MILLER:
7 Q
Mr. Snyder, I don't know whether you have had a chance 8
to read the second paragraph on Page 1 of the March 28, i
9 1985, memorandum that is attributed to Inspector X.
10 But do you recall that you are the individual who 1
11 made those statements?
12 A
Yes, sir, that is my basic statement.
13 If I could say that, after I got copies of these, 14 some of the words may have been slightly changed f rom 15 what I recalled saying; but I also remember now that, I 16 think, Mr. McGregor was taking some notes while we were 17 talking, because I do recall that now; but I recall 18 reading this, when I got a copy of it, that some things 19 were slightly different, and I gues,s you could expect 20 that when he didn't take everything word for word; but 21 this is what I did say.
22 Q
All right.
You are identified by whoever took these 23 notes as the inspector who came to the NRC with 24 allegations on March 13th, which is approximately 16 25 days prior to the date of this memorandum.
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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Did you, in fact, go to the NRC on or about March 2
13, 1985?
3 A
Yes, sir.
I had completely forgot about that until i
4 this.
5 I -- the reason I went, I felt strongly that our 6
procedures-were being violated by our management and I 7
gave it a lot of thought, because I knew this could get 8
involved; but I felt strongly enough about it -- I am 9
not a person to go squeal on somebody, but I didn't feel 10 like I could get satisfaction out of our management; and 11 they were violating procedures on supervisors being 12 certified, leads being certified; and I took a copy of 13 our procedure in with me; and it was just an obvious 14 violation, that if I was viola. ting my procedures like 15 that, I would be gone.
16 Q
The procedural violation that you brought to the NRC's 17 attention was that leads and supervisors were not 18 certified in the inspection activities that they were 19 responsible for; is that correct?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
Was there any other procedural violation that you 22 brought to the NRC's attention?
23 A
No, sir, not that I recall.
24 0
W! o did you speak to at the NRC at that point in time?
25 A
I believe Mr. McGregor, again.
O./
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1 Q
Was there anyone else with you?
2 A
No, sir.
3 0
When Mr. McGregor received ycur allegations about these 4
procedural vialations on March 13th, what, if anything, 5
did he say to you?
6 A
Well, I don't exactly recall.
7 I think he said that he would check it out, you 8
know.
That's all he could have said at that time.
9 Q
Have you received word from the NRC with respect to 10 those allegations?
11 A
I believe I did receive something; but I really -- I had 12 forgotten all about this situation until this morning 13 and I couldn't say what I did receive.
i 14 I do know that later the procedure was changed to 15 say that they did not have to be -- the supervisors did t
16 not have to be -- certified; but my whole problem -- my 17 individual case -- see, in the area of calibration, my 18 lead was not certified, Larry Phillips, and neither was 19 my supervisor, so I had the total scope of this work 20 that I was basically responsible for; yet, I had no one 21 to turn to with a problem except Bob Seltmann.
I went 22 to him several times.
23 I could go to Rick Saklak but then I would end up 24 in Bob Seltmann's office to get an answer.
I just felt like I had had enough.
I had to work 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 hard to try to straighten this mess up that I was put 2
into, this area of calibration; and there was still some 3
answers that had to be given as far as "How are vc going 4
to handle this?" or "How are we going to handle this?"
5 I just felt like it was something that I had to do, 6
to bring out.
7 Q
You said the mess that you were put into.
8 You mean the records problems that you described 9
yesterday?
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Well, there was a lot of things other than that;
~
12 but it was just -- I was the only person in there and 13 there was more work than I could really do to catch up, 14 as well as keep the daily work up, and I wasn't getting 15 any help from my lead, who didn't really care.
He left 16 me alone and he might as well have, because he didn't 17 know what I was 'doing and he didn't want to know.
18 So I was my own lead more than, I guess, my own 19 supervisor, in a way, because I was trying to -- I was 20 taking a lot of these decisions on myself to correct 21 when I shouldn't have been doing that.
22 0
The lead that you referred to as Mr. Phillips?
23 A
Yes, sir.
24 Q
When did Mr. Nemeth become your lead?
25 A
I believe, now that you mentioned that, Mr. Nemeth was Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 my lead at this time and was not certified, also.
2 I had to train him.
He hired in in January of '85, 3
Mr. Nemeth did, I believe; and he was -- he was brought 4
from the Perry site.
He was a Comstock employee there 5
and they, Comstock management, was bringing their Perry 6
people down and making them leads over what had been 7
here, although that's not what bothered me; but, he was, 8
again, not certified, and he was put in place of another 9
lead of mine that wasn't certified; and it was just --
10 it wasn't right.
11 He was pending -- his certification was pending, i
12 because I had trained the man; but, still, he was not 13 certified,'so --
14 Q
Was Mr. Nemeth -- I am sorry.
I didn't mean to cut you 15 off.
16 THE WITNESS:
No.
That's all right.
17 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
When you say you had a 18 problem because they were not certified, you are not 19 just talking about their knowledge of the area; I assume 20 you are talking about the fact that there was no one to 21 sign off after you and that you were then the sole 22 r'esponsible person for dispositioning these things?
23 Is that so?
24 THE WITNESS:
Well, the lead didn't 25 necessarily have to sign off anything after me.
You did Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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l have to have a Level 2 review, but it did not have to be 2
your lead, although I believe that may have been in the 3
procedure, that the lead was supposed to review your 4
paper work, which would mean signing your paper work; 5
but it was an obvious procedure violation, as well as 6
the man did not know what I was doing and could not help 7
me without me showing him, I guess.
8 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
So you are then 9
primarily talking about his understanding -- his lack of 10 understanding of the area?
11 THE WITNESS:
That's true.
He had no idea 12 what was going on, neither one of my leads,'r. Phillips M
13 or Mr. Nemeth.
14 Now, Mr. Nemeth took the initiative to jump right 15 in and start helping me as soon as he got certified; but 16~
until he was certified, he could do very little to help 17 me out.
18 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
But weren't the pro.cedures 19 clear on the face, so that you really didn't need 1
20 someone with a tremendous understanding?
Couldn't you 21 just do it by the book yourself?
22 THE WITNESS:
That's true; but, if I recall, 23 and probably if the record was checked, my area was the 24 only area of inspection that I didn't have a certified 25 lead and I didn't have a certified supervisor; and, yet,
{)
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1 I was being responsible for the work in that area and no 2
one else.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Mr. Miller.
4 MR. MILLER:
Thank you.
5 BY MR. MILLER:
6 Q
There was, in fact, at least one other inspector 7
certified in calibrations, wasn't there; isn't that 8
right?
9 A
Yes, sir.
10 Q
That's Ms. Sproull?
11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
Was she ever assigned -- well, was she helpful -- I will O
13 back up.
14 Did you ever discuss any problems that you had with 15 her?
16 A
Only between the time that John Seeders was removed from 17 the QC inspection and before I was certified, we -- and 18 maybe a week or two after I was certified -- we worked 19 toge the r.
20 She was certified.
She could sign the paper.
I 21 could help her out and give her assistance, but I 22 couldn't sign anything.
23 She, obviously, did not want the job.
She knew the 24 problems there and she just did not want to take the i
}
mess, is what it was.
She did not want it.
25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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She had many other certs at that time.
She told 2
management she didn't want it.
They asked her to take 3
over the job, and she didn't want it and she told them 4
that.
5 Q
Well, did you ever ask her for assistance?
6 A
Not that I asked her, because she knew very little about 7
it.
She had a piece of paper that said she was 8
certified, but that goes on a lot out there.
You are 9
certified but, yet, you don't work in the area for six 10 or eight months, so you lose the control of it.
Things 11 change daily or weekly, and she was all of a sudden 12 throwed in here and not knowing what was going on.
O 13 She was like me.
She had to learn -- and maybe I 14 kncu more about it, because I had been trained by John 15 Seeders and I was more current in my knowledge than she 16 had been, because all of a sudden one day they come in 17 and said, "Myra, you have got to do this now.
You are 18 the only one. "
19 Well, that was it then.
She had to do it, because 20 there was no one else; but she reluctantly done it.
21 Q
So I take it that you didn't regard her as -- after you 22 were certified -- as someone that you could go to for 23 assistance in interpreting the procedures or calibration 24 techniques or anything else?
r~s 25 A
No, sir.
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1 Q
Continuing with the paragraph on this March 29, 1985, 2
memorandum -- the pages aren't numbered -- but it's the 3
second page of the memorandum, the second full sentence 4
on the page reads -- do you have one for Mr. Guild?
5 MS. KEZELIS:
Here, Bob.
6 BY MR. MILLER:
7 Q
"He has jumped on my ass before.
Flies off just like 8
that.
He has done it many times before."
9 First of all, is that an accurate statement of what 10 you told Mr. McGregor?
11 A
Yes, I would say so.
12 Q
All right.
Now, could you describe -- well, you say, 13 "He has j umped on my ass bef ore. "
14 Had Mr. Saklak ever threatened you --
15 A
No, sir.
16 Q
-- before?
17 A
No.
18 Q
All right.
Had you and Mr. Saklak had any discussions 19 that you regarded as hostile or in which he was 20 aggressive towards you?
21 A
Yes, we had one incident.
He was only aggressive 22 verbally.
He did not threaten me in any way.
23 I cannot recall what it was even about.
24 I was certified at the time.
I would say it was 25 late '84.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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O 1
He come back there and there was something -- he 2
was my supervisor.
He had a problem with something I 3
had done and he -- whatever he said, he said it so the 4
whole office could hear it.
5 I recall that because I talked to Myra Sproull 6
afterwards and she set on the other end of the office, 7
24 feet away, and she heard everything that was said; 8
and I was back in the corner.
9 So he did get loud at that time; and I am not an 10 argumentative person and -- believe it or not -- so I 11 did not recall arguing back with the man, because I was, 12 obviously, in wrong with what he had done -- with what O
13 he had said.
14 I don't recall what I was wrong, honestly, I don't 15 recall; but,'apparently, it was something that wasn't 16 right on my part, or I may have argued mildly.
I am 17 just not a loud arguer, I guess; but if I was wrong, I 18 wouldn't need an argument.
19 Q
Do you recall whether this was something having to do 20 with the way in which you had filled out some forms or 21 was --
22 A
I don't believe so.
I really honestly cannot recall; 23 and it may not' -- it may not have been anything; but to 24 him it was, and it was just something that he made his 25 point, loudly; and I took it and went on.
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1 Q
Were there other inspectors who witnessed that?
2 A
Yes, sir.
Like I said, Myra was at the other end of the 3
office.
There were several in between us.
I don't know 4
who would recall that now, but there was some people in 5
the room.
6 Q
Do you remen oe r whether, af ter this first incident with
(
7 Mr. Saklak, you made any change in your work practices?
8 A
No, sir, I don't recall any.
9 Q
Okay.
Then the sentence goes on, "He flies off just 10 like that.
He has done it many times before."
4
]
11 Now, in addition to the incident that you have just l
12 testified to, do you recall any other instance where he 13
-- well, first of all, were there any other incidents 14 directed at you?
15 A
No, sir.
16 0
Other than what happened on March 28th and this earlier 17 incident that you have just testified to, how would you 18 describe your relationship with Mr. Saklak?
19 A
I got along fine with him.
I would try to work with 20 anybody.
We had a job to do and he was my boss.
21 So, you know, we got along fine as far as I recall.
22 He left me alone more or less.
Unless he had 23 something he had to have me do, he didn't bother me, j
24 because I had too much work to do and I took it all upon 25 myself to try to do it all and to straighten it all out; O
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 and it was -- it took months to do that.
2 Q
Did Mr. Saklak -- I am sorry.
Once again, I don't mean l
3 to cut you off.
1 4
A No.
I just wanted to maybe prove to myself that I could 5
do that.
6 You know, he didn't have to -- he didn't bother me j
7 unless he had to.
He had so many other people to take l
8 care of that he, apparently, felt I had it under 4
9 control; and if I had a problem, I did go to him, you 10 know.
I 11 Q
Did he ever compliment you?
12 A
Not that I recall.
That doesn't happen and I didn't 13 need that, you know.
It's just if you take care of 14 things the way you think you should, maybe you 15 appreciate yourself.
I don't know.
16 0
Well, in these conversations that you would have with 17 Mr. Saklak from time to time, was he loud and sarcastic, I
18 was he respectful?
How would you characterize him?
19 A
Yes, he was respectful.
I never -- you know, he just 20 had a loud voice.
He had a different manner about him.
21 I don't really know how to describe it.
He just was a i
22 loud speaker.
23 Q
Well, quite apart from the volume, was the content of 24 the words sarcastic, respectful, normal?
{)
I don't mean to suggest those are the only ways 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 that you can describe it, but what I am trying to ask is 2
whether you can characterize for the Board your 3
day-to-day dealings with Mr. Saklak outside of the two 4
incidents that you have testified to?
5 A
I just -- I never had any other problems, you know.
6 We -- he spoke to me, as far as I know, as mildly as he 7
could and I did the same between those two incidents and 8
before the first incident.
9 I respected him as my supervisor, because he was 10 that; and that was it.
11 He referred me on to Mr. Seltmann if he could not 12 answer my q'uestion, and that's -- normally where I went 13 the majority of time was to Mr. Seltmann's office, 14 because he could give me the correct answer.
15 Q
All right.
Your statement as recorded by Mr. McGregor 16 goes on to say, "The biggest thing is this is not the 17 first time.
Everybody knows about it and nothing is 18 ever done."
19 I guess my question to you, Mr. Snyder, is whether 20 you were aware of Mr. Saklak having physically 21 threatened anybody else prior to this time?
l 22 A
No, sir, I was not aware of that.
?
23 0
What aspect of your dealings with Mr. Saklak -- well, 24 let me not suggest anything in the question.
I will 25 rephrase it.
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. ()
l 1
I guess what I am looking for is the antecedent to 2
the word this.
You say this was not the first time.
7 3
What event or events were not the first time that i
4 you are referring to?
5 A
Well, in this I meant my experience.
1 i
6 March 28th was not the first time that I had seen 7
him explode or blow up or get loud with somebody, j
8 because I had -- we just discussed my first incident at 9
that, and I knew -- I witnessed one other incident and i
10 knew of another incident that happened a couple of. weeks 11 before this.
~
12 So the other incident I witnessed was -- it was I
13 about 10 minutes till 12:00 one day and there was an NRC 14 Inspector talking to Mr. Saklak in our office at his 15 desk, and at 5 till 12:00 everybody breaks to lunch --
16 for lunch; but there was an inspector, Mr. Mike Lechner, i
17 setting about six feet down from me.
He was joking and 18 laughing about something and -- which was not job 19 related; and Mr. Saklak heard him with the NRC Inspector i
20 there.
I knew he could hear him.
Everybody in the I
21 office could hear Mike laughing; and Mike is the kind of i
22 guy that he can laugh about anything, I guess,.and maybe 23 crack jokes about anything and whatever.
l 1
I 24 But, anyway, he had, apparently, given up for 25 lunch; and the NRC Inspector left at about -- well, l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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about 5 minutes later, say 5 -- maybe 12:00 o' clock --
2 between 10 till and 12:00 o' clock, and Rick always went 3
out for lunch.
4 Rick grabbed his coat off the back of his chair and 5
he went out the door, and he was obviously upset, Rick 6
was.
7 He come back -- just turned right around and come 8
back in the door and came back to Mike, and he -- I 9
don't recall if he pointed his finger at him, but he was 10 standing rignt over Mike, and Mike is, again, about my 11 size, maybe, and he started shouting at him loudly, 12 louder than my first incident.
13 And I cannot recall what he was saying.
He was 14 upset because Mike was cracking jokes or laughing with 15 the NRC Inspector standing there behind him.
16 Rick's desk was probably only six foot away from 17 Mike's desk; and Rick was upset about it.
18 He was mad.
His face was flush -- red.
He was 19 obviously upset.
20 I couldn't even speculate on what was said now.
It 21 was just that he was upset with Mike for acting the way 22 he was; and then he turned around and walked out for 23 lunch.
24 I recall that Mike was upset then after that; that
{}
he left, he went home for the day, because he said he 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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'4231 lO l
1 didn't have to put up with that, either.
l 2
Q Well, do you recall that Mr. Saklak made any threat to i
3 Mr. Lechner?
j 4
A No, sir, I don't recall that; and I don't -- I would 5
have recalled that if there was a physical threat there, j
6 and there was not.
I
]
7 Q
Do you know whether or not Mr. Saklak -- do you recall 8
who the NRC Inspec, tor was that Mr. Saklak was talking j
9 to?
10 A
No, sir, I really don't.
11 There were two or three inspectors on site at that 1
12 time, and it would have been one of the three.
I could O
13 not say.
i 14 They was not present when the shouting occurred.
)
15 Q
To your knowledge, were Mr. Saklak and the NRC Inhpector 16 just talking about non-job-related matters or were they 17 talking about something having to do with NRC inspection 18 activities or Comstock's work or do you know?
j 19 A
I am sure it was work-related.
I don't -- the NRC 20 inspectors normally don't come to our office to talk 1
I 21 non-work-related, I would say.
l 22 Q
Mr. Lechner's jokes, could you hear them at your desk?
l 23 A
Yes.
I don't know that it was a joke more than just he 24 was laughing about something; and Mike has got a funny, l
25 loud laugh and he is a happy-go-lucky guy.
1 2
l Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
i Geneva, Illinois OU1J4 (312) 232-0262
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4232 0
1 I don't know who he was laughing with or what 2
about; I really don't.
It was just a loud laughing; and 3
it was upsetting for Rick.
4 Q
I think you said you had also heard about one other 5
incident.
6 A
Yes, sir.
7 Franco Rolan and Rick Saklak had -- apparently had 8
some kind of heated discussion about work-related 9
subjects.
I don't recall what.
10 They were both taken into Mr. DeWald's office, and 11 there was a -- my understanding after that is that they 12 were both written up with a written reprimand and it was O
i 13 put in their files; but that's all I really know about.
14 Q
Do you know whether or not Mr. Lechner and Mr. Saklak 15 had a personal, social relationship outside of work?
16 A
I would say no.
17 Mike lived in Streator and Rick lived in Chicago.
I 18 Maybe they stopped at the bar sometimes, but I don't 19 think they got together.
20 0
Okay.
Let's go on through this paragraph.
I am going 21 to skip some sentences because I believe you have 22 already testified to the substance of them.
23 The sentence that begins, "He has jumped on my ass 24 before - he has always been wrong."
25 Now, the first part of that sentence, "He has
}
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1 jumped on my ass before," have you now told us every 2
occasion on which you and Mr. Saklak had a difference 3
that you would -- that was characterized in Mr.
4 McGregor's memo as jumping on your ass?
5 A
Yes, I think that earlier statement covered that.
6 Q
You go on to say, "He has always been wrong."
7 What were you referring to there, sir?
8 A
Well, I think during this discussion with Mr. McGregor, 9
that maybe I was generalizing there.
Maybe I was saying 10 just that he was wrong in that incident in our argument.
11 I cannot say now that he was always wrong, because 12 that's not true.
He wouldn't have been on the job if he O
13 was always wrong; and I don't -- that's not a true 14 statement.
15 Like I said, maybe I was referring to -- and it's 16 not worded this way -- but the incident with us, that he 17 was wrong then.
18 Q
All right.
That sentence goes on, "Yet he is giving 19 orders to inspectors on things he doesn't know anything i
20 about."
21 Did he ever give such an order to you, sir?
i 2
22 A
Well, only the order to close the ICR out that we had l
23 the argument about.
That was the only thing that I 24 recall.
25 Q
Did you ever observe him giving orders to other
{}
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1 inspectors?
2 A
Well, he always was telling other people how to go about 3
something; and I think the general consensus was that 4
everyone knew Rick had not trained in all the areas he 5
was over, so he couldn't possibly know everything he 6
was -- he could know what they were telling them, but 7
whether it was right or wrong, on the spur of the 8
moment, maybe he didn't know without further research.
9 That's the only thing that I can say this is 10 referring to --
11 Q
Well --
12 A
-- because he was not certified in other areas, so he 13 could not possibly have known all the answers to all the 14 questions that people were asking him.
15 Q
I realize it's been quite sometime; but I would ask if 16 you could try and recall for us, if you would, any 17 specific instance, either by name of individual or the 18 inspection activity involved, where you had either 19 observed or heard of Mr. Saklak giving orders to 20 inspectors on things he doesn't know anything about, 21 where he was wrong about that; the orders, that is.
22 A
No, sir, I really cannot recall.
There was too many 23 people.
24 Again, this might have been a generalized statement 25 on my part at that time, that I was just making a
{)
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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6 f
f 1
general statement there.
2 I cannot recall any other individuals that he told
)
3 them what to do.
4 I didn't have time to set and listen to other 5
people's conversations with him, although you could
)
6 probably have heard it, if you wanted to; but I was 7
covered up with the work I had and had no time to set I
8 around and listen, and didn't care to, really.
j j
9 Q
The last sentence in that paragraph says, "It is done f
3 i
i 10 just to get the paper work completed so the numbers look l
i 11 good."
t l
12 Did you say that to Mr. McGregor?
]O t
13 A
Well, I am sure I did, something to that effect.
Q i
14 There was a lot of tension at that time in the t
i jl 15 office.
The management was -- we were, I think, if you i
j 16 checked the records, way behind as far as inspections go l
)
17 in the field.
There was people wanting -- you know, we 1
]
18 were holding up construction, you might say.
)
j 19 Now, at that time there was a lot of the work being i
20 done and then it was being inspected after the fact, the 21 work was done, so that QC did not have to stand over the 1
l 22 craft and watch the work.
So it just started piling up.
r l
23 I think the work, as far as inspections go -- and 24 everybody knew that they were behind.
Management knew, 25 and it was a push to get inspections done; and there, 1
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obviously, wasn't enough personnel there.
If there was, 2
they weren't getting the job done.
l 3
At that time they were hiring more people, but it J
4 still takes a month or two to get them people going as 5
far as inspections; and everyone knew that QC was behind 6
on inspections for some reason or another.
i i
j 7
0 Was that your belief in March of 1985, that QC was 8
behind in inspections?
j 9
A Well, I think that was a fact that we were not keeping 1
10 up with the field, with the work going on in the field.
11 Q
Did someone tell you that was the case?
12 A
Nobody individually.
It was -- again, we were all still
{
13 crowded in this one room and where Mr. Saklak's desk 14 was; and some people hear things, other people don't.
15 The word gets around; and it's obvious that -- it i
16 was just obvious the work was not getting done fast 17 enough to catch up with the field inspections that were 18 required.
i 19 Later on it went to an in-process inspection where 20 we had to be there to witness it being done, but it 21 wasn't this way in all cases at that time.
22 It's obvious you have got 500 or 600 craftsmen out i
23 there doing work all the time and you don't have but 60 24 or 70 inspectors to watch overs and although not all of 25 it is safety-related work -- I can't speak for other Sonntaq Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, Illinois 60134 i
(312) 132-0262
4237 I-1 areas of inspection, but that's what was, in my opinion, 2
going on at that time.
3 0
Yes, sir.
4 Well, my question really is pretty specific, Mr.
5 Snyder.
6 Did Mr. Saklak ever tell you or others in your i
7 presence that you were behind in your inspections?
8 A
Not that I recall.
It's been too long; and he never 9
told me that.
He didn't have no reason to tell me that.
10 My inspection was a daily thing.
I could not let 11 mine go like today and do it after the fact.
I had a 12 schedule to go by as far as calibrating tools goes and i
C) 13 you just have to do it or it's overdue.
I 14 So my area is different from a weld inspector area.
15 where he can go out and look at the weld a week later 16 and say, "Yes, that's a good weld," or, "No, that's a 17 no-good weld."
That's the way,.I believe, that was 18 being handled at the time.
19 But, no, he did not tell me that.
20 Q
So, in fact, your inspections then were current?
21 A
Yes, sir.
That's just the nature of that inspection.
22 It has to be.
23 Q
When you say it was your understanding that QC was 24 behind in inspections, do you understand that there was 25 a backlog?
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1 A
Yes, sir.
At that time they were taking people -- they 2
would continually take a group of people out of their 3
normal inspections, put them over here to catch this up,
)
4 because they had a deadline on it, and then when it was 5
caught up, they would go back or they would go to 6
another special project that has deadlines that have to 7
be met.
,i 8
So something has to give somewhere, you know, if 9
you can let a weld inspection go for a week in the field i
10 or longer to do this other job.
11 It was just like a Band-Aid thing, you know, i
12 because there was not enough manpower there.
()
~
13 Q
Mr. Snyder, did you ever have occasion to see -- well, 14 first of all, was there a bulletin board in the QC 15 office where the inspectors were?
16 A
Yes, right.
It was in the hallway in the upstairs l
17 office.
j I
18 Q
Do you recall whether or not there were posted on that I
l 19 bulletin board memoranda and attached sheets that talked 20 about the status of inspections?
21 A
Yeah, I think they were doing that at that time, the 22 number of ICR's open, which means it was not closed.
It 1
23 was in QC's hand to closes number of weld inspections 24 behind or conduit inspections behind, you know, that
(]}
25 needed to be done.
1 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 It was a numbers thing to let people know where we 2
stood, I guess, as far as getting the work done.
3 Q
Would you ever look at those status reports?
4 A
I may have glanced at them, but I really had no reason i
5 to.
6 Again, my area did not involve -- mine may have had 7
some open ICR's.
I am sure there were several -- well, 8
maybe as many as 100 in my area alone that carried over 9
from John's Seeders days that were setting around 10 somewhere, and that all led to that NCR 34206; but, you 11 know, that was -- the only reason that I would have to 12 look at that was for the ICR's, although they never told 13 ICR number, they just told quantity; and it would mean 14 very little to me to look at it.
15 Q
I think you testified that you had a belief that QC 16 Inspectors at that point in time were behind and there 17 was a backlog.
18 Do you recall ever looking at these status report 19 memoranda and their attachments to see if that was the 20 case?
l 21 A
Well, like I said, they just gave you a weekly status on 22 how many inspections were left to do.
23 I don't know -- I don't know anything about it 24 other than that.
It was just a numbers thing.
r3 25 It would say, " Welding, you have 200 inspections, l
(_/
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1 cable pulling was in process, you have conduit, so 2
many."
3 It didn't mean much to me because I wasn't in 4
that -- those areas.
5 Q
I think you said earlier that there was lots of tension
(
6 in the office.
7 Did you notice that tension when you first arrived 8
at the Braidwood site or was it something that you 9
became aware of over time?
i 10 A
Well, not the first day, you know.
I was just worried 11 about getting my reading done and getting my foot in the 12 door.
13 It takes a while tv get to know people, but you 14 still hear things going on; and it was -- as I said 15 earlier, I knew there was problems somewhere, I knew i
16 there was tension, and you could just sit around and 17 listen to conversations.
18 Whether they were right or wrong, that's what the 19 conversations led up to; and there was just obvious 20 tension there.
21 The money thing I mentioned earlier.
22 Q
Yes, sir.
23 What I am trying to zero in on, if I can, is the 24 tension that you observed because of the inspector force 25 being behind in its inspections.
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1 A
Well, I am sure that compounded the problem, because 2
when we had meetings weekly at that time, maybe twice~a 3
week, or DeWald would stand.up in front of us and he 4
would tell what was this and what's that, that we are 5
going to have to pick up on this or pick up on that area 6
of inspection, and just generally describe what areas of 7
inspection maybe were behind; you know, that we needed i
8 to devote more time or attention to that area than 9
another area to try to get the numbers down.
I think 2
10 that was the saying back then, to get the numbers down.
11 I felt like there was -- there may have been --
I 12 obviously, there was pressure by Construction to catch 13 up inspections, and I am sure that Commonwealth Edison 14 was involved in that because that's -- it's their plant.
15 They have to get a job done.
16 Q
Well, I appreciate, you know, the logic; but --
17 A
Well, that's my honest knowledge at that time.
18 Q
Surely.
19 Did you ever observe anybody from Commonwealth 20 Edison discussing this with -- well, discussing it with 21 another employee of Commonwealth Edison or anyone else 22 that worked for Comstock?
23 A
No, sir, I never witnessed that.
24 That wouldn't be something that you would hear.
25 0
All right.
You said to make the numbers get down.
()
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 The numbers of inspections?
2 A
The numbers of inspections, the number of ICR's that 3
were in QC's hands to close out to get the system i
i 4
moving.
5 If you have got a hold tag on that conduit, they 6
can't pull cable through it.
They can't do a lot of 7
things to it.
I 8
So they have hot systems they have to -- they are 9
working on.
If there is ICR's holding up that system, 10 the ICR's need to be taken care of so that the work in 1
11 the fleld can proceed on that particular item.
12 Q
Mr. Snyder, do you recall at any of these weekly 13 meetings any statements to the inspector force that they 14 need to improve the number of inspections that they 15 performed in a given time period, a day, a week?
16 A
I remember there was an occasien when management was, 17 obviously, looking at people's time sheets.
18 We did have to fill out an individual time sheet 19 every day to say what we had done that day, number of 20 operations,,whatever we did do;'and there was a time 21 there they were looking at those, and there was a couple i
22 of people that were called into the office and were 23 asked why they were doing only 1 point something inspections per day instead of whatever they thought was 24 1
25 actually needed or could have been done by that person;
)
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l but there is just no way that you can sit down and 2
determine that, because every inspection is different.
3 MR. MILLER:
Well, I appreciate your answer; 4
but I am not certain that it was completely responsive 5
to the question that I asked, and I would like the 6
Reporter to go back and reread the question, please.
7 (The question was thereupon read by the 8
Reporter.)
9 A
(Continuing. )
If you are talking Irv DeWald's weekly 10 meetings, he could say anything and that's only up to 11 somebody's memory to remember; and I cannot recall 12 whether that was ever said.
s 13 BY MR. MILLER:
14 Q
Well, did you have any occasion to observe Mr. Seese 15 talking to the inspectors?
16 A
During those weekly meetings, at some times Mr. Seese 17 would get involved as far as the status department goes; 18 and he would just simply read off his status report to 19 what was -- what number of inspections were behind, in 20 what areas; and maybe he would say in a general 21 expression that maybe we need to work on these areas; 22 you know, we need to work on conduit a little bit more 23 or, you know, whatever you are behind, because if you 24 are, obviously, behind in one area, they are obviously
{}
needing more inspectors to come over and take care of 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 those areas, if they have them.
2 Q
All right.
Well, did Mr. Seese ever say, in substance, 3
" Conduit inspectors have to get on the average of two or 4
three or four more inspections per day to get this 5
activity up to snuff"?
6 Don't hold me to the words.
I am just --
7 A
I don't recall him saying that, no.
I don't recall 8
anyone being singled out or any group of inspectors, you 9
know.
10 It's just a -- you have to have communication 11 between the management and the inspectors; and if 12 management doesn't tell you what areas were obviously O'J 13 behind, individual inspectors would not know that.
14 So it's just a -- it was a general meeting, they 15 called it, and it was just to keep people informed.
16 Q
At your prior job, the Marble Hill plant, were there 17 comparable meetings?
18 A
No, sir.
We were a smaller group or we were branched 19 off.
I don't recall.
20 You see, we were the whole group in these meetings 21 here with Comstock.
They would get every inspector 1
22 involved in the meeting.
23 Down there, it was just a small -- maybe with your 24 lead, he might have a weekly gripe session I guess they 25 call it.
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1 0
Were there communications from your lead at Marble Hill 2
as to what the status was of your inspection activity?
3 A
Oh, yes, I think that's going to happen.
Wherever the 4
work is needed, it's just a -- you have to know where 5
the work is to do it; and it might just be a pep talk, 6
too, to enlighten the inspectors that there is a lot of 7
work to be done.
8 Q
Do you recall if any, what you would characterize as a 9
pep talk, came from Comstock management?
10 A
Well, I think I called it a general meeting, and it 11 could be a general pep talk meeting.
12 It's just -- it was a gripe session.
Irv would say 13 his thing, management would say their thing and then 14 everyone was open to ask a question if they liked.
15 It could have -- very easily have been a pep talk, 16 just to keep people on their toes, you know.
17 C
Keep them on their toes, what do you mean by that?
18 A
Well, there are a lot of' people who work different ways; 19 and if you let them, a lot of people would sit there all 20 week and not do a lick -- what I call a lick; and that's 21 just people's way, the way they are.
You cannot change 1
22 them.
23 And that goes on, I think, everywhere that you 24 would find that, so it's --
25 Q
Did you personally observe some individuals-who were Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 talked at at Comstock who, in your words, wouldn't do a 2
lick all week?
3 A
Yes.
4 0
On the in-camera transcript, can you identify some of 5
those individuals for us on the record?
6 A
Well, there could be certain cases where there is i
7 explanation of that.
8 Q
I am talking about your observation.
9 A
Dan Marschner, for example, and that's just his nature.
10 You could ask anybody that has known him.
After talking 11 with people that worked with him on his job prior to 12 that, you have to get a cattle prod to get him out of (w) 13 there to do some work.
I mean, that's Dan, though, and 14 he can, obviously, get by with that; but I know that he 15 did have a run-in later about his work from management, 16 so he nas to force it then.
17 Some people will just work harder than others.
18 Q
Anybody else?
19 A
Dan just comes to my mind.
He is still there, but I 20 think he works a little more nowadays; but this was back 21 in '84.
22 You have to understand, too, I think he set there 23 three or four months before he ever got certified to do 24 an operation; and that's -- it's -- demoralizing is the 25 word I want to use, because you cannot do anything but Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 shuffle paper work.
You cannot sign anything.
You 2
can't go do an inspection.
All you are is a clerk, 3
really, pushing paper until you get your certification; 4
and that was a problem of the new training program.
5 I went through the same thing, three months to get 6
certified; but I took it upon myself to train in three 7
areas in those three months.
Nobody told me to do it.
8 I jumped in there and done it.
9 Dan could have done the same thing, but he didn't 10 want to do that, that was his choice; but I could not 11 sit there like that and not do anything.
I just can't 12 do that; and some people can.
13 So you are going to do whatever you are told; and 14 if they don't tell you to do anything, you just sit 15 there all day.
16 Q
Aside from Mr. Marschner, did you observe any other 17 individuals who would just sit there all day?
18 A
No, sir, I don't recall anyone else.
19 Q
Do you know --
20 A
There is always days where somebody is not going to have 21 something to do -- it happens all the time -- but I 22 think there is always something to do, too, if you look 23 for it.
24 Q
And you personally do look for it, don't ycu?
25 A
Oh, yes, sir.
I am busy.
I have a schedule to go by, bg Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 and I have a helper now that helps me; and prior -- I l
2 think he started working with me in December of 1985 3
because of the workload.
t 4
It was a full-time job that I really had -- was 5
unable to cover anymore, but that's just the way I am; i
l 6
and there are people both ways.
7 Q
Mr. Snyder, I think you said that there were one or two 8
occasions of which you were aware in which people were 9
taken to the office to discuss the number of inspections 10 that they were performing?
11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
Do you know the names of those individuals?
()
13 A
Well, Dan Marschner was one of the inspectors; and it 14 was bound to happen.
15 I mean, if you sit around long enough and somebody 16 sees you and you are obvious about it, which he was, you 17 are going to run into trouble somewhere, have to justify i
18 your work or your pay, because I think he was told he 19 was only doing 1.3 inspections a day on the average, 20 something like that, but where other inspectors in that 1
- 21 same area were doing -- I couldn't say, but more than 22 that.
23 Like I stated, there could be other reasons for 24 that; but I would feel like that in Dan's case, the 25 obvious reason was he was not working hard -- working as
. {}
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i i
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1 hard as he could have at it.
2 Q
Do you know a man named Herschel Stout?
3 A
Yes.
4 Q
Do you know whether Mr. Stout was ever talked to about 5
the number of inspections that he was performing?
6 A
Yes, sir, I understand he was also called in for the 7
same reason and told he wasn't performing the 8
inspections his fellow inspectors were, the number on an 9
average.
I think they averaged the stuff out.
10 Q
And had you observed Mr. Stout's conscientious --
11 A
I did not observe him setting around doing nothing.
12 Of course, he was working in a different area.
I 13 think he was in weld inspection, and later on they moved 14 weld inspectors out in the building, so I could not -- I 15 did not observe him.
16 Dan was in my group, more or less, Dan Marschner, 17 and I think we had the same lead.
That's why I could 18 observe Dan.
19 Q
Any other individuals besides Mr. Marschner and Mr.
20 Stout that you are aware of who were talked to by 21 management about the number of operations?
22 A
None that I recall.
\\
)
23 Q
Now, I think that earlier this morning you said that 24 there was a push to get inspections done.
25 In this push to get inspections done, Mr. Snyder, Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111nois ov134 (312) 232-0262
4250
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1 was there any relationship to how careful an inspector 2
should be in performing his inspection function?
3 A
Well, if an inspector doesn't do a thorough inspection, 4
that's his fault -- or that's his inspection and that's
'5 going to fall back on him.
6 They was, obviously, behind in the number of 7
inspections to do; and I don't think a good inspector 8
would rush the job to -- and sacrifice quality.
If he 9
did, he was not doing the job properly, I guess.
10 You can work faster or harder and still do a good 11 job, in my opinion.
I can, I did; and I think you would 12 know if the quality -- if your job was not being done 13 properly, you would eventually get caught, because there 14 are people that overview you.
15 And I think anybody can always work a little harder 16 than they do; but they was obviously behind in 17 inspections, and to get the job done, you have to either 18 work faster, work longer hours or work a little quicker.
19 You know --
20 Q
Let me just ask --
21 A
-- do more inspections --
22 0
-- the --
23 A
-- or hire more people.
24 Q
Okay.
Do you know whether the number of inspections
)
done per day per inspector rose or fell over the time 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 period since you were hired at Braidwood?
2 A
You mean the number of inspections required by 3
individuals or -- I don't know if I understood your 4
question.
5 Q
I think you said there were lots of ways that you could 6
get more inspections done?
7 A
Uh-huh.
8 Q
One is simply to do more inspections?
9 A
Right.
10 Q
Do you know whether that, in fact, has occurred?
11 A
Well, no, I don't know for a fact.
12 I am sure some individuals did try to do more work.
13 You know, it's an individual thing, because nobody is 14 going to force you to do that, physically force you to 15 go out and do more inspections, and there are some guys 16 that just won't do any more, and a QC Inspector knows 17 that, that the laws are he is supposed to be independent 18 from production; and there is a fine line there.
If you 19 don't have the production, you don't have the plant; but 20 if you don't have QC, you don't have the production.
21 So I don't know.
It's an individual thing whether 22 they kicked in more on their own.
23 You see, a lot of people -- maybe it was 3:30 in 24 the afternoon.
They said, "Well, I am not going to go 25 back out there and start another inspection."
Maybe Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
Geneva, 1111nois eu134 (312) 232-0262
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1 some people would go back out there at 3:30 and start j
2 another inspection.
3 It's an individual sort of thing, because it's 4
whatever you feel like doing.
5 0
By "whatever you feel like doing," you mean --
6 A
As an inspector, if you can --
7 Q
Is that --
8 A
-- if you can live with yourself, knowing that you could 9
have done more.
10 You know, we can always do more; but there comes a 11 point where you are either doing it or you are not doing 0
12 it.
(,
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13 0
Is that an attitude that you believe is shared by other 14 inspectors employed by Comstock?
15 A
As far as --
16 Q
As far as saying that it's an individual thing, you can 17 either do more or --
18 A
Oh, yes, it's an individual attitude, in my opinion.
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
20 I don't believe you gave us an answer to a question 21 that was posed a few questions ago as to whether there 22 was a discussion of the quality of inspections during 23 the time there was a discussion of the amount of 24 inspections.
25 Was there also some discussion of quality one way l
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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or the other?
2 THE WITNESS:
You mean from management?
3 MR. MILLER:
Yes, I think that is --
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Was that your question, Mr.
5 Miller?
l 6
MR. MILLER:
That was my question, yes.
7 THE WITNESS:
In our general meetings, I do 8
not recall our manager saying, "You guys go out there 9
and do the best job you can do; the best, thorough job 10 you can do," you know.
11 Like I said, it's understood that you are going to 12 have to answer for your work and your inspections.
- You, fT 13 as an inspector, should realize that.
The --
14 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I take it, then, your answer 15 is that there wasn't anything specifically said about 16 quality, and then it's your opinion that the reason was 17 nothing had to be said; is that what you are trying to 18 tell us?
19 THE WITNESS:
That's true.
He could say, "We 20 need to do more inspections," but he didn't need to say 21 that we need to go do more good inspections.
That 22 wasn't said that way.
23 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
So there was nothing said 24 about quality; the only discussion then was about 25 quantity?
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4254 O
1 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
2 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Mr. Miller.
3 BY MR. MILLER:
4 Q
Well, did you understand that by saying, "Do more 5
inspections," that management was indicating that you 6
should do less-thorough inspections?
7 A
No, sir; and I don't think they said, "You have got to 8
do more inspections."
It's just, "We are this far 9
behind here.
We are going to have to" -- well, like I 10 said, they bring more inspectors over here that were 11 certified.
12 You only have so many people to work with; and O
13 especially like ICR's to close out, maybe one Saturday 14 they would bring in all the conduit inspectors just to 15 work on conduit ICR's, because there were so many of 16 them in our office to close out, to get the numbers 17 down, because there is, obviously, work being held up by 18 those open ICR's.
19 Q
That is one of the other techniques you mentioned, I 20 think, a few answers ago as to how you get more 21 inspections done, you work longer hours?
I 22 A
Yes.
23 Q
And that that would include Saturdays?
24 A
Yes, sir.
I think in '85 we worked every Saturday you 25 wanted to work.
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Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4255 1
You know, you were asked every week.
It never was, 2
I don't think, mandatory.
3 It may have been at one short time, but mostly it 4
was a voluntary thing.
5 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Excuse me.
6 Mr. Snyder, at these general meetings, I believe 7
you indicated that management was present.
8 Were you referring to QC management in the person 9
of Mr. DeWald or were you referring to other management 10 being present?
11 THE WITNESS:
It was only QC management.
12 Maybe Mr. Rolan, the construction manager, a time or two 13 would come up and set in.
14 I don't -- I recall one incident that he did speak, 15 and it was just that the guys were writing on the crap 16 house walls and it better stop.
17 You know, it was laughed aboutslong after that, 18 and --
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
But generally you are 20 talking about QC management being at these meetings?
l 21 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
That was all that 22 was there.
23 (Laughter.)
24 THE WITNESS:
I am sorry.
I shouldn't even have said that.
O 25 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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l 1
JUDGE GROSSMAN:
All right, Mr. Miller.
2 BY MR. MILLER:
3 0
We have been confining our discussion and my questions 4
to you and your responses to these general meetings.
5 Was there ever -- well, was there any other 6
indication from management outside these weekly 7
meetings, informally, that the quality of these 8
inspections should go down in order to get the numbers 9
up?
(
}
10 A
No, sir, not to my knowledge.
11 Q
Even if it wasn't said, did you have a feeling, was it 12 your impression, that's what was being sought?
l 13 A
No, at no time.
1 l
14 Again, when an inspector is out there by himself i
15 doing an inspection, it falls back on him and it's his
?
16 conscience that he has to live with if he rushes himself I
17 and forgets something.
18 You are, obviously, going to have errors sometimes 19 no matter what; but I don't believe that -- myself, I i
i 20 wouldn't sacrifice quality for quantity.
j 21 Q
Let me ask you this, Mr. Snyder:
i 22 I think you said that there were overview j
23 inspections.
J j
24 By whom were the QC inspections of Comstock i
l
)
25 overviewed?
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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(312) 232-0262
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4257 1
A Well, you have QA Department that periodically checks up 2
on you.
3 Later on they did have an overview program, that 4
they were overviewing older inspections.
5 I don't know whether they couldn't find the paper 6
work -- or whether it was the actual verification that 7
the work was done wrong, I mean.
8 Sooner or later, someone else is going to look at 9
that weld, if you want to use that for an example, I 10 would say, and if you have, obviously, missed undercut 4
11 or something, somebody else will see it and, you know, 12 it's -- if you want a job long, you are going to do the 13 job right, in my opinion.
4 I
14 MR. MILLER:
Could I have just a second?
15 BY MR. MILLER:
16 Q
Now, Mr. Snyder, I would like you to look at the next 17 paragraph in this March 29, 1985, memorandum and tell 18 us, if you can, who is the individual -- who the 19 individual is who is identified on Page 2 as another 20 individual?
21 A
That sounds like my statements there.
22 If I had to say who I thought it was, that's who I 23 think it is, because, obviously, I am talking about 24 calibrations there, and I was the only inspector in that 25 meeting certified in that area of inspection.
)
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JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Why don't you take your time 2
and look at the next page?
3 MR. MILLER:
Yes.
It continues on over, 4
actually, to the next page and the top of the succeeding 5
page.
6 Why don't you continue.
7 A
(Continuing. )
If you notice the break at the bottom of 8
that first page, I don't believe those -- in that bottom 9
paragraph, I don't believe that is my statement there.
10 BY MR. MILLER:
11 Q
It is your belief that the first paragraph under the --
4 12 next to the words, "Another individual," are statements O
13 that you made?
14 A
Yes, sir; I would say yes.
15 Q
All right.
The second sentence says, I know of at 16 least five guys that he has jumped on and nothing gets 17 done."
18 Now, I think you identified two other individuals, 19 Mr. Lechner and Franco Rolan, as individuals he had 20 jumped on.
21 Can you identify'any others that fit that --
22 A
Well, obviously, I probably took into consideration Mr.
23 Seeders in the year before that when I seen them in 24 their argument, although he maybe was not jumping on 25 him.
Maybe they both were involved in that argument;
{
4 Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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4259 O
1 but that's probably one of them.
2 Maybe I was taking myself into consideration there, 3
my earlier time, too, which that.would be four.
4 I couldn't say who the fifth one would be, to my 5
recollection.
6 Q
And the seeders' incident is the one that you testified 7
to yesterday; is that correct?
8 A
Yes, sir.
9 Q
It then goes on to say, "I know he got," and what is the 10 word there, " John," or is.it blacked out in your copy?
11 A
No; it's here.
Let's see if I can find this.
12 Okay.
I am with you now.
O 13 Q
You were referring to Mr. Seeders?
14 A
Yes, sir, John Seeders.
15 Q
You go on to say, as recorded, "It wasn't John's fault 16 because the department was messed up."
17 A
Yes.
I -- if I can elaborate, if that's what you want, 18 it was, obviously, John Seeders' area of inspection, 19 which we discussed yesterday.
20 Again,- he did not have the certified individuals 21 over him that was required per procedure, and I felt 22 like that management had let him down, so they had to 23 bear some of the responsibility for that department 24 being the way it was, although it seemed like that it 25 was John's fault.
Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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Q Well, would you agree, based on the records that we 2
looked at yesterday and your own review of the 3
calibration inspection files, that some of the fault lay 4
with Mr. Seeders?
5 A
Yes, I agree.
He could have made management aware of 6
some of the problems, maybe; and I am not saying he 7
didn't try.
I don't know that situation.
8 But I was also referring to management meaning our 9
QA Department, which performs audits over us as an 10 inspector; and if I could find these obvious violations, 11 I don't know why someone else couldn't.
12 Q
Well, to the extent that the violations were obvious, 13 they indicated that Mr. Seeders either was unable or 14 unwilling to follow the procedures; right?
15 A
That's correct.
16 Q
When you were talking to the NRC in March of 1985, Mr.
17 Snyder, why didn't you tell them about your evaluation 18 of Mr. Seeders' work?
19 MR. GUILD:
Are you referring to this meeting 20 or the prior meeting?
21 MR. MILLER:
This meeting.
22 A
Well, I didn't know it was necessary.
23
.I really didn't go for that reason.
We were 24 discussing Mr. Saklak here, really, not Mr. Seeders, 25 although Mr. Seeders' name came up; and I know that Mr.
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1 Seeders had also talked with the NRC officials about 2
some problems he had, so maybe that came up from a 3
question by Mr. McGregor.
I cannot say that, though.
4 BY MR. MILLER:
5 Q
But the focus of the meeting was really Mr. Saklak's 6
problems; is that right?
7 A
Yes, sir.
8 Q
The sentence goes on -- another sentence goes on, " Rick 9
had a grudge against John so he got him moved out."
10 On what did you base the assertion or the statement 11 that Rick had a grudge against John?
12 A
Well, in my opinion, that was the case.
They got into 13 the argument that I witnessed that July -- and this may 14 have went on before I was even on site -- that Rick 15 could not forget; and then all of a sudden I find these 16 problems in the vault, and that was one way of getting 17 an inspector removed from that particular job by all the 18 violations, and Rick was his supervisor.
19 But I believe they had a personality conflict with 20 each other, and Rick won out because he had the -- he i
21 was the supervisor and he did have the authority to 22 maybe persuade upper management that there was a problem 23 here and that we needed to -- they needed to get rid of 24 him.
25 Q
Mr. Snyder, you have characterized the situation with
)
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f 4262 O
1 the calibration inspection records as a mess that you 2
cleaned up?
3 A
Yes.
4 0
In your opinion, if you had been Mr. Seeders' supervisor 5
and had learned of a mess in calibration records, would 6
you have taken any disciplinary action against him?
7 A
Yes, sir, if I was his supervisor, I believe that that 8
would be the proper way to get him out of that area of 9
inspection, because you can't let something like that 10 continue to build up, because the whole program could 11 have been jeopardized by those actions or inactions.
~
12 Q
This paragraph ends with the sentence, "I don't know if
()
13 he is holding that against people or because he has lost 14 files there or what."
15 Could you explain what you meant by that last 16 sentence, sir?
17 First of all, is that, in substance, what you said 18 to Mr. McGregor on March 29th?
i 19 A
Well, in that prior -- well, I assume I said it.
j 4
20 Like I mentioned before we started on this, these 21 were taken from notes; and I do recall when I first read 22 this that the way some of this was worded was not 23 exactly the way that it was said; and I am sure if you i
i 24 talk to the other individuals, you would get agreement 25 from them, also.
[}
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4263 C) 1 But the sentence above that, it says, "They have to 2
do something about this guy.
They know he" -- excuse 3
me.
I am getting ahead.
"No, they have taken some of 4
the power away" -
"some of his power away," and they 5
did, removed some of his authority, gave it to another 6
supervisor; and I really believe that that affected his a
7 ego, because it more or less looked like he couldn't do 8
the job that he was doing or had been doing, and that he 9
may have tried to hold it against other people or take 10 it out on somebody.
I --
11 Q
Somebody in management, sir?
12 A
No, sir.
Well, it was just -- it would just affect O
13 his -- I don't even know what I want to say here.
14 He just might be more irritable about working there 15 even, because it could be like a slap in the face to 16 some people, although it obviously had to happen that he 17 had to lose some of his authority, because it just l
18 couldn't -- he couldn't do it all.
i j
19 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Let's take a 10-minute 20 recess.
L 21 I would like a bench conference with just counsel.
22 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had, after which i
23 the hearing was resumed as follows:)
I 24 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Back in session.
25 Mr. Miller.
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MR. MILLER:
Yes.
2 BY MR. MILLER:
3 0
Mr. Snyder, I would like you to look through the balance 4
of the April 5th -- I am sorry -- the March 29, 1985, 5
memorandum and see if you can identify any other 6
statements that you made in that meeting?
7 A
I just came to one.
8 I don't know how these are numbered.
Let's see.
9 I guess it would be the fourth page of the 10 memorandum at -- the top paragraph sounds like my 11 statement, again, which is just referring to Mr. Saklak, 12 Rick, it says, wanting me to close out an ICR -- this 13 says several of my ICR's, and I refused to do it.
14 Q
And that's the incident that you have already testified 15 to here?
16 A
Yes.
Again that "several" word I think is misleading 17 because in my case it was only the one.
18 Now, maybe I had been referring to several welding 19 machine ICR's --
4 1
20 0
Okay.
21 A
-- because there is no other that I am aware of.
22 Q
Okay.
Anything else that is attributable to you, Mr.
23 Snyder?
24 A
No, sir, I don't see any other.
25 Q
All right.
Now, about how long did this meeting in the
[}
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1 morning take with the NRC?
1 2
A Maybe a couple of hours.
I really don't know.
No more 3
than that, I would say.
4 Q
Then there was a subsequent meeting that day?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
Did you attend that meeting as well?
I 7
A Yes, sir.
8 Q
How was that meeting arranged?
9 A
Well, I think if you read the first statement on that 10 memorandum, that inspector said that they had a lot of 11 people that wanted to come over and had complaints, 12 maybe, to bring with them; but when that was said, the
! O 13 NRC Inspector later tried to arrange that to happen, 14 which it was determined that it would be best if they 15 came over on their lunch period so we wouldn't shut down l
16 work in the field.
17 Q
How was the second meeting made known to the other 18 inspectors?
l 19 A
Mr. McGregor told us that if we knew of anyone that 20 wanted to come over and speak, to come on over at that 21 time, and for us to more or less relay the message to 22 the other inspectors.
23 Q
All right.
Did you and the four other individuals who 24 went over with you in the morning do that?
!{}
25 A
I think there was five other individuals that went with Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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1 us.
2 Q
Five.
I am sorry.
3 A
But, yes, I think that was done.
4 The other gentlemen that were with me had been 5
there longer than that.
They knew more than I did about 6
certain problems, I guess, and they worked in different 7
areas of inspection than I did; and I told a few people, 8
and I don't know who now, I honestly don't recall; but I 9
said, "If you have got a complaint, be over there at 10 noon," and that's what happened.
11 Q
Mr. Snyder, I would like to show you now a memorandum 12 dated April 5, 1985, from an NRC employee, Mr. Charles 13 Weil, to Mr. Charles Morealius, and it purports to be 14 a -- well, notes of an interview of all the inspectors 15 that took place beginning at noon on March 29th, and 16 call your attention to numbered Page 2 of that 17 memorandum.
18 There are some statements attributed to you?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
Did you make those statements?
21 A
Yes, sir, I would say so.
22 MR. GUILD:
First, just for the record, Mr.
23 Chairman, the reference is to a memorandum that is 24 subject to the protective order; and the version that 25 Mr. Miller is showing the witness is one that is not Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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expurgated, it has the names contained in it, which is 2
appropriate, since we are in an in-camera session.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Fine.
4c BY MR. MILLER:
5 Q
I believe the first paragraph -- or the first sentence 6
says, " Rick Saklak continually violates procedures 7
during inspector certifications."
j 8
JUDGE COLE:
Don't I get one?
9 MS. KEZELIS:
Excuse me.
10 BY MR. MILLER:
11 Q
What does that mean, sir?
12 A
Obviously, I was talking about his violation of the r
C:)
13 certification procedure for supervisors.
14 That's not quite the way this is worded.
15 Q
Okay.
But you were referring to the fact that he was 16 not certified but was, in fact, the supervisor?
4 17 A
Yes, sir.
That was the only violation that I was l
18 talking about during this whole episode.
19 0
The second paragraph talks, again, about the threat that j
20 Mr. Saklak had made to you the preceding day; correct?
21 A
Uh-huh.
22 Q
Now, Page 3 of the memorandum, opposite the name, e
l 23
" Herschel Stout," is a statement, " Inspector
~
24 productivity overrides the quality of the inspection,"
i i
25 and then there is a parenthetical that there was a show
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1 of hands.
2 Do you recall that?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
Do you recall that such a show of hands actually took 5
place?
6 A
Yes, sir.
7 Q
Did you raise your hand?
8 A
I believe I did, yes, sir.
9 Q
Were you, in fact, agreeing with Mr. Stout that 10 inspector productivity overrides the quality of the 11 inspection?
12 A
From my hearsay -- excuse me.
From the -- from what I
(,)
13 had heard amongst the inspectors in the office, I -- and 14 that may not have been factual -- yes, I did agree with 15 what I had been told and heard on my own.
16 Q
Had you --
17 A
However, that was not the case in my particular 18 incident, area of inspection.
19 0
When the show of hands was as'ked for, did you raise your 20 hand immediately or did you kind of look around and --
21 A
Well, I was in front of the room, I think, because I was 22 the first one to speak with my complaint; but, yes, I 23 don't believe -- I was not the first one to raise my 24 hand.
25 Q
Before you raised your hand, did you look around and see
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l if anybody else --
l 2
A Oh, I am sure, yes, sir.
3 You see, there was -- there was a generall 4
consensus, I suppose you would call it, that the 5
management was pushing numbers, which we discussed l
6 earlier, and which the push of that numbers may have 7
affected quality.
That was just -- I think that's the 8
basic problem with that.
1 9
It's not necessarily that it did affect quality, 10 but it was a possibility.
i 11 Q
Well, just so the record is clear, Mr. Snyder, do you 12 have any personal knowledge of an instance in which
{
13 inspector productivity or pushing the numbers 14 overrides --
or overrode the quality of the I
15 inspections?
16 A
No, sir, not to my knowledge.
17 Q
Now, the meeting ended.
18 Then did the inspectors go back to work?
19 A
Yes, sir.
I think it was before 12:30 the meeting broke 20 up; and, of course, we went back to work.
'21 Q
Was Mr. Saklak on site that day?
s 22 A
(No response.)
l 23 Q
He apologized to you in the morning and then did you see 24 him again?
l 25 A
Was that the 29th?
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Q Yes, sir.
2 A
Yes, sir, I believe he was there the whole day.
3 Q
Did you work that Saturday?
4 A
Yes, sir.
5 0
Was Mr. Saklak present on Saturday?
6 A
No, sir.
7 Q
Do you know why he was not -- would he normally have 8
been present on a Saturday?
9 A
Yes, sir.
10 Q
Do you know why he wasn't present on Saturday?
11 A
Well, Irv DeWald stopped me early in the morning and 12 told me that Rick wouldn't be in.
He was on indefinite q
r 13 suspension pending an investigation of our incident.
14 Q
All right.
Monday came.
15 Was Mr. Saklak present on Monday?
it A
No, sir.
l 17 Q
Did you ever see him on the Braidwood site again?
18 A
I have never seen him since.
19 Q
Do you know what happened to Mr. 32klak?
20 A
Well, he was terminated from his supervisory job with 21 Comstock.
22 Q
Do you know the reason that he was terminated?
23 A
Well, their investigation, obviously, proved that he had 24 done what I had alleged; and after talking with him, he
("
25 admitted it, and that was enough for management to
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1 suspend him, terminate.
2 Q
After Mr. Saklak was terminated, did the tension that 3
you have described -- was it reduced?
4 A
No, not completely.
I would say no.
5 Somewhat.
Some people that -- some inspectors that 6
either didn't get along with Rick or didn't agree with 7
him maybe were relieved.
8 I was told by a few people that -- because they had 9
worked for him for a year or two and they knew how he 10 was as far as his attitude or his toughness, and they 11 were relieved that it was finally -- he was finally gone 12 and maybe that things would change.
O 13 Q
When you say his attitude and his toughness, what are 14 you referring to?
15 A
Well, like I stated earlier, he was -- he just had a 16 strong way of coming about -- coming across; and maybe 17 things that happened that I was not aware of and that I 18 never knew about.
19 And I am sure people had confrontations with him, 20 other inspectors, maybe not as loud as the ones heard, 21 maybe so.
I never -- I don't know.
22 Q
Okay.
23 A
And maybe they were just glad that he was gone and maybe 24 that things would turn better.
25 Q
Did you believe that Mr. Saklak personally would
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1 overlook construction deficiencies?
2 A
I know he went to the field.
He would go look at things 3
I am sure -- yes, he did.
Not on an inspection basis he 4
might have looked at something that was in question.
5 Q
Yes, sir.
I think you misunderstood my question.
6 A
I am sorry.
7 Q
My question was:
8 Do you believe he would ignore them if he found 9
them?
10 A
If he found a defect?
11 Q
Yes, sir.
12 A
No, sir.
No, I don't believe so.
(-
13 Q
Now, in July of 1985, I think you and the other QC 14 Inspectors were laid off by Comstock and re-hired by 15 BESTCO the same day; correct?
16 A
The next day, yes, we were re-hired.
17 Q
And at that point in time, BESTCO employees were 18 represented by a union; correct?
19 A
That's correct.
20 0
Prior to that time had there been, to your knowledge, 21 negotiations between the Union and Comstock management?
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
And had those negotiations progressed satisfactorily as 24 far as you knew?
25 A
No, sir.
They, apparently, couldn't come to an
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1 agreement.
2 Q
Was that a source of tension among the inspectors?
3 A
I would say yes, because there was -- every other day 4
you would come in and you would hear something else.
5 People were looking for finalization to this union 6
problem.
7 We had voted it in, I think, in November of '84, 8
and it had just been too long.
People were ready to see 9
the thing ended so that things could maybe finally get 10 normal and people work closer together and not so much 11 friction, maybe.
i 12 Q
You say not so much friction between --
Q 13 A
Between management and the inspectors.
14 Q
Once you were employed by BESTCO, that, in a sense, 15 resolved the Union issue, did it not?
16 A
Yes, sir.
17 Q
Did that event reduce the tension that you have 18 previously described at the site?
19 A
I would say yes, in my opinion.
20 You know, you are not going to satisfy everyone.
21 Some people didn't like it because they didn't get the 22 raise they were promised originally; but I think the 23 representation was there and that's what a lot of people 24 was want'ing, because you had none with Comstock.
l 25 Q
All right.
When Mr. Saklak was there, Mr. Snyder, did Sonntag Reporting Service, Ltd.
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l you understand that he had the power to fire an 2
inspector?
3 A
Well, I think he could have persuaded.
I don't think he 4
could fire a man on the spot.
He would probably, I am 5
sure, have to go through Mr. DeWald.
6 Q
To your knowledge, did that ever take place while you 7
were an employee of Comstock?
8 A
That he fired someone?
5 9
Q Or tried to persuade or persuaded Mr. DeWald to do so.
10 A
Well, I am sure that in the John Seeders incident, that 11 Rick was -- he knew more about it than Mr. DeWald; 12 because I was reporting to Rick.
He goes to the 13 meetings with Mr. DeWald, not me, and he would have had 14 a say-so.
He would have been involved, I would say, in 15 the decision.
16 Q
Okay.
That is, Mr. Saklak would have been?
17 A
Yes.
18 Q
Any other instance that you can recall, while you were 19 employed by Comstock, in which Mr. Saklak recommended 20 that someone be fired or transferred and it happened?
21 A
Yes; I believe one other incident with Kermit Williams.
22 Rick caught him sleeping in the office; and Kermit wore 23 dark sunglasses all the time and he could sit up 24 straight and sleep; but, anyway, he did get caught and I
(~T 25 think Rick had some say-so in that one.
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Q Any others?
2 A
But I believe that was it as far as I know.
3 Q
All right.
Did Mr. Saklak have any control over whether 4
an inspector got overtime?
5 A
I would say so.
I am sure there was some influence 6
there.
l 7
0 Who was it in Comstock management that authorized 8
overtime?
9 A
Well, I would say Irv DeWald would.
If Irv did not 10 agree, then I am sure he could override Rick; but during 11 1985 pretty well anybody that wanted to work overtime 12 could work it 13 I think at one point it was a mandatory thing for 14 10-hour days and Saturdays voluntary; but I think it was 15 just because of the workload that the overtime was 16 offered.
17 0
Were there some inspectors who did not want to work the 18 10-hour days?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
But was it Mr. Saklak's decision to work the 10-hour 21 days or somebody else?
22 A
I would say Irv DeWald's.
23 When I say management, Rick Saklak was involved 24 there.
He was the No. 3 man, I would say, behind Larry 25 Seese and Irv DeWald.
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(s) 1 Mr. Seltmann is off to the side in the QA 2
Department, but I don't think at that time he was 3
involved with scheduling.
4 Q
Now, Mr. Snyder, when you took over as the Calibration 5
Inspector in early October of 1984, you previously 6
testified that you had to clean up the mess that you 7
inherited and also keep track of the routine, current 8
calibration inspections.
9 Is that correct?
10 A
That's true.
11 Q
Were you able to do that work?
I mean, were you able to 12 get it done?
O
\\-
13 A
Yes.
Like I said, it took maybe six months to finally 14 get on top of the situation, because there was too much 13 daily work to be done to do all of the -- you know, the 16 work I had to clean up.
17 To say I couldn't correct any of the reports that 18 we have looked at here -- it was more or less like 19 writing the NCR 3406, 3419 and straightening out the 20 Form 3 and the crib, getting a hold area for -- QC hold 21 area in the crib, just things that should have -- you 22 know, needed to be done.
23 Q
Since you have gotten on top of the situation, as you 24 described it, six months after you took the job, have 25 you been able to keep up with the daily calibration I
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1 inspection routine?
2 A
Yes, sir.
3 Q
All right.
4 A
Up until -- I could still do it today -- up until --
5 December they gave me another inspector to work with me.
6 Q
Had you requested another inspector?
l 7
A I think maybe I might have hinted that.
4 8
You know, they could see the work flow.
We had l
9 more tools now than even in John Seeders' day and it 10 just was too much paper.
I do too many inspections in a 11 week to keep the paper work going.
i
~
You can do the inspection quicker than you can do 12 i
13 the paper work.
That's what it come down to.
i 14 Q
Mr. Snyder, during the summer of 1984, when a torque 15 wrench calibration inspection was done by Comstock, who i
l 16 actually manipulated the tool to perform the inspection 17 activity?
18 A
Well, what I witnessed was the craftsman would actually 19 apply the wrench onto the tester and John Seeders would 20 watch the tester.
21 That tester -- the problem with it was --
l 22 Q
I am sorry, Mr. Snyder.
i
{
23 A
Okay.
I 24 Q
You have answered my question.
25 A
All right.
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1 MR. MILLER:
That completes my examination of 2
Mr. Snyder.
3 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Mr. Guild, do you want to 4
start now?
5 We only have about 15 minutes.
6 MR. GUILD:
I would just as soon pass until 7
we resume.
8 It will shorten my examination considerably if I 9
can review my notes.
1 10 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
I think that's the best 11 thing to do.
12 So we will recess until 2:00 o' clock on Monday, the 13 same place.
14 MR. MILLER:
Mr. Snyder, thank you.
15 MR. GUILD:
Thanks.
16 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
And, Mr. Snyder, you will 17 have to come back on Monday.
18 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
19 MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, there is one thing 20 that I think we ought to put on the record.
21 I would request the Chairman instruct Mr. Snyder 22 and, really, I think it applies to counsel as well, that 23 the substance of Mr. Snyder's testimony not be discussed 24 with other individuals who may be witnesses to this 25 proceeding.
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1 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Yes.
We ask that you do not 2
discuss the testimony.
3 THE WITNESS:
I will not.
4 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay, fine.
5 So now we are off the record.
6 MR. GUILD:
Mr. Chairman, I guess I would ask 7
that same admonition apply not just to counsel, but to 8
anyone else.
9 Mr. Snyder, obviously, works at a job where he 10 works with supervision, he works with a variety of 11 people who could also discuss his testimony with him.
12 MR. MILLER:
Oh, yes.
13 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
Okay.
Everybody here in the 14 room knows that we shouldn't be discussing it.
15 MR. MILLER:
I think he is talking about Mr.
16 DeWald.
17 MR. GUILD:
Yes, his supervision in 18 particular.
19 MR. MILLER:
We will see to it that that 20 message gets passed along.
21 JUDGE GROSSMAN:
We are off the record.
22 (WHEREUPON, the hearing of the 23 above-entitled matter was continued to 24 the 16th day of June, 1986, at the hour 25 of 2:00 P. M.)
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NO PAGE NUMBER CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER O
This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING:
Braidwood Station Units 1 & 2 Commonwealth Edison Company (Evidentiary Hearing)~
DOCKET NO.:
50-456/467-OL PLACE:
Joliet, Illinois O
DATE:
Friday, Ju'ne 13, 1986 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
(siat)
( TYPED ) G. Allen Sonntag Official Reporter Reporter's Affiliation O
L