ML20050D037
| ML20050D037 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 03/19/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20050D033 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8204090495 | |
| Download: ML20050D037 (30) | |
Text
/pm Mcg 'o UNITED STATES
['i,*)-j(J',
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 7,
7, g -
,3 g
WASHIN GTON, O.C. 20555
- c..,4 March 19, 1982 OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLOSURE UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF:
Transcript of Discussion of Revised Licensing Procedures Friday, February 26, 1982 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108(c), the Comission, upon the advice of the General l
Counsel has determined that the subject transcript should be released to the public.
__ p sab %
SAMUEL J. CHILK Secretary of t e Comission l
8204090495 820319 PDR 10CFR PT9.7 PDR
.s D
NUCI. EAR REGUI.ATORY COfei!SSICN 7
f s
COMMISSION MEETING c
In de.%+=ar cf:
CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTION 10 DISCUSSION OF REVISED LICENSING PROCEDURES I'
February 26, 1982 gg.
PAGES:
1 - 27 AT:
Washington, D. C.
T- (NIX 45 d.lDE%X
(
400 Vi_T da Ave., S.W.
W==Hd g--
, D.
C.
20024 k
~
Talachena: (202) 554-2345
Ot s
1 I
UNITED STATES OF AMEPICA 2
NUCLEAR PEGULATORY CCMMISSION 3
4 DISCUSSION OF PEVISED LICENSING PPGCEDUPES 5
6 CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTION 10 7
8 N uclea r Regula tory Commission Poom 1130 9
1717 F Street, N.
W.
k'a c h in g t o n,
D.
C.
10 Friday, February 26, 1982 11 12 The Commission mot in closed seccion, pursuant 13 to nctice, at 2:05 p.m.
14 EEFCRE:
15 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission 16 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner PETEP BRADFORD, Commissioner 17 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 18 STAFF MEMBERS MAKING PPESENTATICNS AT MEETING 19 S.
CHILK 20 L.
o I C K'4 I T M.
MALSCH 21 C.
CUNNINGHAM A.
ROSENTHAL 22 P.
CCTTEP 23 24 25 ALDEASoN REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGIMA AVE, S W. WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
2 1
E E Q 9. E E D 1 E G E 2
CHAIRMAN FALLADINCs The meeting will please 3 come tc ceder.
4 The subject of today's meeting is a discussion 5 of revised licensing procedures with particular 6 a tten tion to contentions.
It is a closed meeting under 7 Examption 10.
8 I have asked General Counsel if he would 9 highlight the major features of' the proposal.
After we 10 have had the highlighting we will address questions and 11 than I would propose a course of action and I am open to 12 any other proposed course of action as well.
13 ER. BICKWIT:
I would just like to go through 14 this very briefly.
What this paper is is a response to 15 the Commission's request to ccmbine Cptions 1 2 and 4(a )
16 into a draft final rule.
17 O p tion 1,
you may remember, was oriented 18 around the statement of facts by an intervenor offerino 19 contentions and we have included within this a 20 requirement that a concisa statament of facts or expert 21 opinion be put forward by an intervenor submitting a 22 contention.
If that is not done, then the contention 23 can be dismissed.
If any facts which are known to the 24 intervenor and he does intend to rely on are not 25 submitted and are later shown to have been withheld, I
ALDERSoN REPoRENG COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
e 3
1 than sanctions may be imposed against the intervenor.
2 The precise sanctions are not spelled out in this rule.
3 Option 2 was to the effect that a contention 4 would be dismissed if no conceivable set of facts could 5 be offered to prove the contention and that has been 6 retained as an element of this draf t rule.
7 Option 4(a) was to the effect that a 8 contention would be dismissed if the intervenor failed 9 to establish a genuine issue of material fact at the 10 con tention stage.
11 There was some difference of opinion on the 12 Commission as to whether there ought to be in this rule 13 an explicit reference to the fact that a Board member 14 could use his technical knowledge in dismissino a 15 contention and we have ph ra sed the rule so as to include 16 tha t as an optional way to go.
17 The phra sing on that is on pages 24 a'nd 25 in 18 the s ta teme n t of c.onsidera tions.
Let me point cut that 19 on 25 at the end of the half paragraph there should be a whihhwouldindicate the end of that 20 closed bracket 21 optional phrasing.'
22 CHAIEMAN'PALLADINO:
Where was that, page 25?
23 MR. BICKWIT On page 25.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The closed b ra cke t at the 25 end of the paragrs ph ?
ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIAGINIA AVE., S W WASHtNGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
4 1
MR. BICKWITs Yes, at the end of the paragraph.
2 That concludes my presentation.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Can I ask you twc 4 questions, Len.
Maybe I will pick up the last one since 5 that is the one you referred to.
It appears that in 6 using the technical knowledge, or when the technical c
7 knowledge is to be used, that this is a very formal 8 procesc, is that not right, where the Chairman must 9 identify that it is being used and all the parties be 10 notified?
11 MR. BICKWITs That is correct.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
So it can't be uced 13 capriciously or without ---
14 MR. BICKWIT
--- without providing some 15 opportunity to rebut it, yes.
16 COMM ISSION ER GILINSKY:
Well, let's see, isn't 17 that then an admitting proceeding in-itself?
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Yes, but it does permit 19 the technical knowledge that is embodied in the panel to 20 be used to ---
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Not the Chairman.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADIFO:
Nc.
The Chairman vculd 23 have to say we are going to now use some technical 24 knowledge that is embodied in the panel and so you all 25 know it here is what we are using.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
5 1
MR. BICKWIT:
In effect the Board would 2 package up the submissions of the applicant or the 3 sta ff, on the one hand, tooether with that technical 4 knowledge and in effect confront the intervenor with 5 this package and ask the intervenor whether on rebuttal 6 to that package some genuine issue could be established.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 The reason I was making 8 tha t point is I do want to see some protection to the 9 intervenor when we use that and that is something I had 10 not remembered in the first reading.
11 MR. BICKWIT I think it is legally required.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The other question 13 relates to how can discovery be used as a basis for 14 contention?
This was one of the comments that was 15 received, that the intervenors are now precluded frCm 16 using discovery as a process for developing the basis 17 for a contention.
18 MR. BICKWIT Well, they have always been 19 precluded from that.
You are only allowed to have 20 discovery on a given conten tion.
I think perhaps the 21 concern was that by requiring them to state their facts 22 at an early stage it was going to make impossible the 23 use of facts obtained via discovery.
24 What this statement of considerations points 25 out is that that is not the intention at all, th a t you ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024(202) 554 2345
6 1 are expected to state those facts,that you have 2 a va ilable a t the centention stage, but that if facts 3 later become available which are relevant a s a result of 4 discovery of course they can be used.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 But they can 't be used to 6 introduce a new contention, can they, or can they?
7 MR. BICKWITs I would say that if you develop 8 new facts in the course of discovery which would justify 9 the submission of a late contention, yes, they could be 10 used for that.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO4 Is that any different 12 from the way it is now?
13 MR. BICKWIT No.
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
But of course if the 15 contention doesn't get admitted because the facts 16 waren't available to the proponent of it, then he is 17 never goino to get disccvery based on that contention.
18 So he is never going to have the opportunity to buttress 19 it.
I think that that criticism is an absolutely valid 20 one.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But I gather that is no 22 different from the way it is now.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
No, the difference is 24 that the standard is now higher at the beginning.
Ycu 25 can't uso discovery to get yourself over the present ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
7 1 standard, but it is not such a hard one to get over.
2 What is going to happen now is that the sta nda rd is 3 going to go up.
You are going to be expected to plead 4 the necessary facts at the outset.
If you don't get 5 over that hurdle, then you don't get into, discovery.
6 You wouldn't face the standard that you are 7 now going to face at the outset under the present system 8 until la ter on when you came up against a motion fcr 9 summary judgment.
At that poin t you would have had 10 discovery and would have had access to ---
11 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
Oh, before you have a 12 summary dismissal or a motion for summary dismissal you 13 have gone through the discovery?
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD.
That is right.
15 MR. BICKWIT You are correct.
You will have 16 to have some facts available to you to justify the 17 finding of genuine issue at an earlier stage than ycu 18 would under present practice.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Under present practice 20 you can use discovery to establish that you have a 21 genuine issue of material fact.
Under the proposed 22 practice you won't be able to.
You have got to 23 establish that first and then you get discovery.
And if 24 you find additional facts they are helpful to you as the 25 proceeding goes on but they don't get you over that ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W, WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
8 1 first hurdle.
2 MR. BICKWIT:
That is absolutely correct.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Which I gather was part 4 of the intent to ma ke it more in keeping with the 5 requirements f the case so that you don't have a lot of 6 expenditure on f rivolo us con ten tions or on conten tions 7 that appear.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, wait.
What you 9 are doing is you a re going to bring forward what we do 10 now at a somewhat later stage to an earlier stage.
You 11 are not going to spend much time ---
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
No, I think we are trying 13 to treat all the people more equal.
Fight now the 14 applicant has to put forth his contention in the form of 15 a safety analysis report, the staf f puts forth their 16 findings based on the SER's and now the intervenor has 17 to say, well now, here is what I centend and here is why.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes, but we have a 19 certain standa rd for conten tions and we then deal with 20 the merits of the contentions at a later stage.
What 21 the proposal is is to bring that merits review inte the 22 con tention a pproval process.
So you are not going to be 23 savino time.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Or let's say tha t it will 25 require that the basis for the contention be more ALDERSoN REPoRnNG COMPANY,INC.
400 VIAGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
9 1 clearly and more snecifically identified.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Eut f ri volo us 3 contentions get thrown out at a somewhat later stage.
4 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO:
And this would throw them 5 out earlier.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But you would be doing 7 the same work and instead of a relatively clean peccess 8 you would have a relatively confused process.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That doesn 't come across 10 to r. e.
If you have got a convincing argument I will 11 listen to it.
12
( La ugh te r. )
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs Basically what one is 14 doing here is changing the tendencies to error in the 15 system.
At the moment some bath water probably survives 16 too long and under the new system some babies are going 17 to get thrown out too early.
You ca n choose your system 18 and either one is going to make some mistakes.
19 MR. BICKWITs With regard to discovery, it is 20 changing the price you have to pay in order to get 21 discovery.
Presently you really don 't have much of a 22 hurdle to get over in order to initiate the discovery 23 process.
This is going to make it harder to get 24 discovery and there is going to be less discovery.
That 25 is one of the purposes.
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
1 10 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Is that because there 2 won't be as many contentions?
3 MR. BICKWIT:
That is right.
4 CHAIR!AN PALLADINO4 Well, if the contentions 5 don't stand up or don't have any supporting basis, then 6 the question is ---
c 7
MR. BICKWIT:
But I think the difference in 8 policy is that some think that there ought to be 9 discovery permitted on the showing of a very lov 10 threshold in order to establish something that will get 11 you over a higher th re sh old.
This rule is taking the 12 position that you need to get over a somewhat higher 13 threshold in the absence of discovery as an aid to you 14 to get over it.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, how is 16 disccvery involved here?
I thought we were dealing 17 separately with discovery.
18 (La ugh te r. )
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We are.
This is 20 contentions.
21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes, we will hamstring 22 them there, too, but that is a different track.
I had 23 thought back two or three conths ago when we last 24 visited this subject that the next step, once this paper 25 was daveloped, was to impanel a group of people with o
ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
11 1 some expertise and experience in our proceedings and lay 2 it before them.
I still think though I am unlikely to 3 be the beneficiary of that session, but it would be well 4 worth doing because I think a lot of the questiens you 5 are asking really could benefit f rom people giving you 6 raal life for examples of contentions that have been 7 developed in various ways or why they feel that they 8 would be worse or better off under this regiment.
I 9 don't know whether that is still what the Commissicn 10 intends, but it seemed to be a good idea.
11 CHAIBMAN P AL L ADIlic s What I was going to 12 propose in view of the fact that we have the Task Force 13 on Licensing Reform was that we send this to them for 14 comment and consideration and ask for either a separate 15 set of comments or inclusion in any package that they 16 are coming forth with.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa The Task Force is k
tha t Jim m.U$h m
er is that the ---
18 who?
Is 19 CHAIEMAN PALLADINCa No, this is the internal 20 task force.
We are in the process of establishing a 21 Licensino Ref orm Feview Pa nel of outside people, but 22 thay would review only packages that the Commission has 23 said, well now, we think this is ready to go for 24 comment.
We would put it out for comment and they would 25 review it as part of the comment period.
But I was ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
92 1 thinking of sending this next to the Tourtellotte task 2 force, our interim task force, if that is agreeable.
3 COMMISSICNER BRADFORD I don't see any harm 4 in that.
I think that the kinds of people that we had 5 in mind in terns of a broader cross-section of 6 practitioners are more available to you in the task 7 force that is teing formed now, but I don't see any harm 8 in the other.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Alan wants to say 10 something.
11 HR. ROSENTHAL:
I just wanted to make a 12 conment that I suspect may be unpopular, but the 13 Commission, it seems to me, one, has delibe ra ted en this 14 particular subject at extraordinary length.
It was put 15 out on notice and comment and it received a substantial 16 number of comments coming from various segments of the 17 s pe c t rum.
18
'41th due respect, I would submit that i
l 19 absolutely every possible aspect or consideration cf l
20 this proposal has been ventilated to a poin t where in my 21 judgment further exploration either by Mr.
22 Tourtellotte 's group or through ha ving industry a nd 23 intervenor representatives up here would make precious
- 4 small additional contribution.
25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Wa it a minuto, Alan.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINtA AVE S.W WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l
13 1 Ve have had, as you say, extensive written comment.
2 Some Commissioners may have read all of it.
I know I 3 haven't.
But in terms of seople sitting here at the 4 table, wha t we have had are basically the custodians in 5 various levels of the procass.
The only actual 6 participants in terms of people that try these cases 7 though have been the staff.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, but when you are 9 talking about Tourtellotte's group you are talking about 10 precisely the p ple ---
[CpMfshQ f '"b
"""4 I know, but Ala n 's commen t 11 12 wasn't confined to Tourtellotte's group.
13 MR. ROSENTHALs Well, I was under the 14 impression that the notice and comment procedure 15 elicited expressions of viewpoints on the part of people 16 outside the NRC.
I was also under the impression 17 certainly that the notice and comment procedure provided 18 an opportunity to anyone who had something they intended 19 to offer.
Now I just don't know beyond that myself.
20 I mean, it is true that what you have been 21 hearing at this table has been largely, if not 22 exclusively, from the in-house crowd, as it were.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What you say is all 24 quite true.
The notice and comment process does prCvide 25 opportunity to comment.
There certainly is an adequate ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
7 t4 1 basis in that for going ahead with this proposal 2 assuming tha t it withstands o ther types of challenges.
3 My point was just that there is a difference 4 between a broad notice and comment process and the 5 papers which are then distilled through several levels 6 before they get to us and sitting down and talking back 7 across the table with people who really have what might 8 be called hands-on experience with the licensing peccess.
9 Now we have had the staf f and the staff has a 10 perspective and certainly the judges on both the appeal 11 boa rds the licensing boards have contributed.
12 I just think it would be helpful to hear f rom 13 especially those who actually frame coatentions and can 14 give a description of what all this will mean but also 15 from the applicants.
16 CHAIPMAN PALLADINO:
My main reason fer 17 proposing what I did was we have appointed a task force 18 who is supposed to be looking at the overall picture of 19 reculatory reform.
I think we got s ta rted on these on 20 independent paths.
If we come out with one thing in 21 this document and then something different later, I 22 believe we would wish we had coordinated them.
23 All I was interested in at this stage was to 24 see if we can 't find out whether we are working in the 25 same direction or working in opposite directions.
ALDERSON AEPoATING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGioN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
15 1
COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, but all the 2 people who I believe a re on Tourtellotte's group are the 3 onas who have been involved in this process ---
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, they may come back 5 a nd say, boy, that is a g rea t documen t, you know.
6 (Laughter.)
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 I think Peter has made 8 another point which is that in this process we haven't 9 really involved the outside la wyers who have been in 10 there in the cases and who have had to frame contantions 11 or try to get them knocked out or whatever which is 12 completely different.
But as for running it through the 13 same coople acain, I mean they have commented 14 extensively on it and I imagine they are a little tired 15 of it and I am tired of it.
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
No, I don't think the 18 task force has looked at this.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, the task force 20 hasn't, but the individual movers have.
ELD has, Alan d
21 has and Tony has.
22 MR. ROSENTHAL:
No, I am not on the task force.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You are not on the 24 task force?
25 MR. ROSENTHAL:
No.
i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
16 1
(Laughter.)
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Are you on the other 3 grcup?
4 MR. FOSENTHAL:
I am on the other group, but I 5 am not 6
COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Vaybe I an confusing 7 the groups.
Ch there are twc internal groups.
8 MR. ROSENTHALs There is a task force and then 9 there is the advisory group to the chairman.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What are you en?
11 MR. POSENTHAL:
I am on the " sag" as it we re 12 which may be an appropriate name for it.
13 (Laughter.)
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I see.
I was thinking 15 of the advisory group.
16 (Laughter.)
17 MR. ROSENTHAL:
I am not on the task force 18 itself.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You know, to extract 20 just some little potential possible gain here we really 21 have spun our wheels for a long time.
22 (Laughter.)
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY And I must say, you 24 know, as f ar as I can cee the purpcse of this is te come 25 up with some little live cutback in intervenor's ALCERSoN REPcATING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
17 1 rights, and it really is a vaste of time here I think.
2 (Laughter.)
3 MR. ROSENTHAL:
Well, understand me.
When I 4 expressed the view inelegantly tha t the Commission 5 should fish or cut bait in this it was not because I 6 support this proposal because, as you know, I don't.
I 7 still, wi th due respect to the contrary vie w of 8 Commissioner Bradford, have extreme doubts that hauling 9 in representatives of the industry or the intervenor bar 10 or both is coing to add very much.
It seems to me that 11 thare is a basic policy question here.
12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Why don't we just issue 13 a policy sta tement rather than go through this 14 r ule-ma king process.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We have issued a 16 policy statement.
We have issued directions to the 17 boards.
18 MR. COTTER:
And that has been very ef f ective.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
But that is our policy 20 statement.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
i 22 MP. COTTER 4 That has been very effective.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINC:
My only arcument is if we 24 have got a task force working on the problem we had 25 bettet make sure that they can give un any comments and ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 4
18 1
then we can do ---
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY But we have got a lot 3 of important things to do and this doesn't strike me tc 4 be one of them.
You know, we have talked about sum 5 costs.
I mean the sun costs here are just astrcnomical.
6 (Lauchter.)
7 MR. COTTER:
I would like to support the 8 Chairman 's proposal f or a couple of reasons.
9 One, while I think that this is a step in the 10 right direction, it is fundamentally a part of what we 11 have been doing for the last year which is to try and 12 twist around the rules to make them fit a larger 13 licensing process that isn't righ t the way it is right 14 now.
15 If the task force is going to look at the 16 rules of procedure as a whole, then it would make an 17 awf ul lot more sence for them to look at something like 18 this in connection with that rather than you all si t tin g 19 here and takinc this little tiny slice and foolino 20 around with it and then having them come out with 21 recommendations in which this little slice doesn't fit.
22 There are two other reasons why I don't think 23 it is a ppropria te to a ct now.
24 One is I don 't quita see what effect it is 25 going to have.
I think the amount of effect it would ALCER$oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
70 1 have if it were enacted as is is extremely limited if 2 only because I can only see three proceedings to which 3 it would apply from the very beginning.
All the others 4 have done probsbly 75 or 85 percent of their contention 5 work and it is not going to apply to them.
6 The other contextu/a1 consideration is that as 7 the process is operated now operating license boards are 8 eliminating 42 percent of the conten tions tha t a re 9 initially filed in the first place.
I think there is a l
l 10 general misconception that is common in the community l
11 that licensino don't knock out contentions at the outset 12 and that is not true.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Tony, I wanted to ask 14 you about that at some point anyway.
It has been two or 15 three months since we visited this subject.
I must say 16 that I recently saw a decision out in, what is it, 17 " Byron" in which we managed to chuck out th e League cf 18 Worr en Voters, Myron/ Cherry and 135 contentions all in 19 about four or five pages of text.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 That is an interesting 21 crouping.
22 (laughter.)
23 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD :
I raally wondered wha t 24 more the Commission can wan t from its licen sing process 25 than a trophy like that.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 J
20 1
(Laughter.)
2 MR. ROSENTHAls Wait a minute.
Just to set 3 the record straight, they were not disnissed from the 4 proceeding because of the quality, bad, good or 5 indifferent, of the contentions.
They were thrown out 6 for failure to com ply with the discovery order.
C 7
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
You are right.
8 MR. ROSENTHAL4 It had nothing really tc do 9 with an evaluation of any of.their contentions.
10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD Well, except to the 11 extent that the weight of the Commission's attention tc 12 the licensing process and i ts previous policy statements 13 having to do with expecting its rules to be adhered to 14 and its proceedings to be run efficiently a re obviously 15 having something of an effect.
16
'4 hen we first met forty meetings ago on this 17 subject prac tically a year ago to the day in the wake of.
18 the great ---
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes, I was going to ask 20 the OGC to summarize it for me because I ha ve Icst track 21 of just how 22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, it really is 23 just about a year ago today and the origins were the 24 great licensing panic of 1981.
25 (Laughter.)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
21 1
COMMISSIONER BRADFORDa Th e Be vill hea rings in 2 late February touched off the 90 delay month concerns 3 and we sat here for three or four meetings a week 4 thrcugh March, April and May.
The delay months are all 5 gone now and I really wonder whether those who managed 6 the process have a sense that there is a substantial 7 amount of time being wasted on frivolous contentions in 8 the CL proceedings these days.
9 MR. COTT ER :
There are some.
Let me tie it to with a comment that the Chairman made here earlier, tha t 11 the applicant puts in their contentions to form the FSAR 12 and the staff ruts in their conten tions to form the SER 13 and then the intervenors come in and put in their 14 contentions.
15 The way the process operates now is that we 16 start a proceeding, in my judgment, anywhere from two to 17 three years before it is ripe to be started.
The 18 average length of time, for example, from the 19 appointment of a board to the completion of construction 20 of these plants is running somewhe re a round three or 21 four years.
Yet we start this process on the average 12 22 months before the FER comes out and 14 or 15 mon ths 23 before the FES comes out.
Why we do it, I don't knew, 1
24 but because we do it that way ---
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY That was once regarded 2
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE 4 S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
22 1 as a great advance.
2 MR. COTTER:
Well, it is a lot of 3 foolishness.
It generates a lot of discovery wheels 4 spinning and a lot of intervenors trying to protect 5 their possible interests by putting down everything they 6 can possibly conceive of because they know they haven 't 7 seen the f undamental documents that relate to what may 8 ba in fact an issue.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That was a result of 10 tha licensing crunch in 1972.
11 (Laughter.)
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, since you feel we 13 are giving undue a ttention to this matter, I say the 14 most expeditious thing we could do is turn it over to 15 the task force.
16 (Lauchter.)
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
No, but it means that 18 we won't be spinning our wheels and somebody else will.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Smaller wheels.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Licensina reform has been 22 the tcpic cf conversation in the nuclear industry lcno 23 before I joined this Commission.
I gather this 24 Commission has considered it a very importa nt point.
We 25 try to f ocus on the matter by a ppoin ting a ta sk force.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
23 1 There was the history that this was already under 2 consideration and we proceeded with it.
Now we could be 3 comino out with documents that work at cross purposes.
4 I really think it is important to get a 5 coordinated approach on this and asking the ta sk f orce 6 for its comments or, if you want, we could say, look, 7 take it and incorporate what you think is appropriate in 8 the rules that you are going to come out with on April 9 14th.
We could even go that far and not even ask them 10 for comments and say use it for your deliberations and 11 that might be another step we could take.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Can I say another word 13 about this?
14 CH4IPMAN PALLADINO:
All right, go ahead.
15 COM ISSIONER GILINSKY I don't disagree with 16 all of the proposal and in fact part of it I supported 17 right from the outset and ! thought there was unanimous 18 acreement on part of it.
What we ha ve really been 19 w rastling over is that extra little bit of trying to cut 20 back on, you know, disagreement about a certain part of 21 it.
22 It seemed to me the first part making 23 intervenors be as explicit as they can about the bases 24 of their contentions or indicate what it is they are 25 drawing their information from or intend to draw their I
I i
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
24 1 information from is very useful because it communicates 2 to other pa rties what the intervenors are abou't and 3 gives them an opportunity to prepare their cases 4 earlier.
But there has been unwillingness to simply go 5 forward with that part of,the rule in order to capture 6 this extra little bit.
Tha t is really what we have been 7 arguinq about all this time.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 What are we trying tc 9 capture?
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Whether you are going 11 to bring the merits into the contention stage in 12 effect.
That is really what we are talking about.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, I think that is the 14 essence of this rule.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, if you think 16 that is the essence of the rule, I guess in that case I 17 don't support it.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I was trying to get dcwn 19 to what we can do.
20 Cne, we could adopt the rule or we could 21 reject it.
22 Two, we could refer it to the task force for 23 some short-term evaluation and permit them to include it 24 as part of their e valua tion.
Ma ybe pa rt of their 25 evaluation might be we think wa oucht to incorporate ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON,0,C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
25 1 this into something else we are bringing to your 2 attention.
We can give it to them with tha t explicit s
3 instruction.
4 I was proposing that we turn it over to the 5 task force, ask them for comments and allow that one of 6 their comments might be we think this ought to be part 7 of our package.
If we concur, we vill let them develop 8 it as part of the package.
If they say oh, this is a 9 fine piece of works independent of whatever we are 10 thinking of, it come go back for a decision.
I just to 11 make sure we don't work at cross purposes on this.
That 12 is why I would propose this.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, as I said, I 14 would be pre pa red to adopt part of that rule.
The rest 15 of it I would just let go.
I am not inclined to turn it 16 over to them.
17 CHAIEMAN PALLADINO:
You are not inclined to 18 turn it over to them.
19 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
My own preference 20 would be to ditch the whole thing if the Commission were 21 headed in that direction.
22
( Lauch te r. )
23 COMMISSICNER BPADFORD:
Among the other 24 alternatives, turning it over to the task force with an 25 eye toward also getting the comments of peo ple with i
ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 l
e 26 1 hands-on experience seems to me to be the best I can do 2 toward making sure you are well informed in the time 3 that you have actually to decide on it.
4 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs Fine.
5 CHAIRMAN PAllADINO:
Well, I will turn it over 6 to the task force and ask them for comments and allow 7 that one of thair comments may be that they think they 8 ought to include it in their package but I am open to 9 any other connents.
10 MR. COTTER:
I was just going to suggest that 11 one point that might go with it was that in looking at 12 this it seemed to us that it could be easily fixed, but 13 that the rule may basically be illegal because it 14 precludes intervention in support of a license.
In 15 other words, while tha t is a reasonably rare 16 occurrence 17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Fow does it preclude 18 m ?
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I didn't catch that.
20 MR. COTTERS Because it sa ys tha t con tentions 21 are to be directed by intervenors against the applicant 22 in the case of safety matters and against the staff in 23 the case of NEPA metters.
There may be an intervenor 24 who wants to come in and attack the staf f 's position 25 because it is contrary to the applicant's or attack the ALOERSoN REPoATING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., W ASHINGToN. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
27 1
i 1 intervenors, the other intervenors who are trying tc 2 prevent the license from being issued.
3 MR. ROSENTHAL:
As a practical matter there 4 are very few individuals or organizations who might wish 5 to support the applica tion who would meet the standing 6 requirement.
7 MR. COTTER I think that is correct, but tha 8 rule is still fundamentally against the flo w of the 9 statute which says that any party who has an interest 10 has a right to intervene.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Any other comments that 12 we ought to hear on this matter?
J 13 (No resonce.)
14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
If not, then we will 15 proceed as we just indicated and we will stand adjourned.
16 Thank you.
17 (Whereupon, at 2: 40 p.m.,
the closed meetina 18 adjourned.)
19 20 21 22 23 i
24 25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
e s
m UUC*,.ZAR REGITIA*."CRT CSFSS:t3 Thi3 13 Oc cSTOff7 that the ECOacheC i:recdeding: hef0rt the COMPISSION FEETING 10 the ::: attar Of;.
CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTION 10 - DISCUSSION OF REVISED LICENSING PROCEDURES C4U4 cf Pr:Cetcing:
February 26, 1982 Ccckat IIc::her:
Flace of Pecceedisg:
Washington, D. C.
wars held as herein appears, ace cha'. this is the cri;inal :: scse:-1;-
thersef fc:- the file of the Cc=:=1ssicc.
Mary C.
Simons Cfficial ?.epct*04." (77 e")
(
r5
-r Cf.#icial de pcr er ( Siff.20'.:r 2 )
I l
\\
.