ML19296D062
| ML19296D062 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Palisades  |
| Issue date: | 08/21/2019 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Material Safety and Safeguards |
| To: | |
| Smith T | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19296D061 | List: |
| References | |
| NRC-0505 | |
| Download: ML19296D062 (74) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Nuclear Energy Innovation and Modernization Act (NEIMA)
Section 108 Public Meeting Docket Number:
N/A Location:
Benton Harbor, Michigan Date:
August 21, 2019 Work Order No.:
NRC-0505 Pages 1-72 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
2 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
+ + + + +
NUCLEAR ENERGY INNOVATION AND MODERNIZATION ACT (NEIMA) SECTION 108
+ + + + +
WEDNESDAY AUGUST 21, 2019
+ + + + +
The Public Meeting was convened in the Hanson Theatre of Mendel Center at Lake Michigan College, 2755 East Napier Avenue, Benton Harbor, Michigan at 6:00 p.m., Bruce Watson, Facilitator, presiding.
PRESENT:
BRUCE WATSON, Reactor Decom. Branch Chief KIM CONWAY, Project Manager TED SMITH, Project Manager JACK GIESNNER, Region III Deputy Administrator
3 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 P R O C E E D I N G S 1
MR. WATSON: Thank you for joining us.
2 My name is Bruce Watson, Im Chief of the Reactor 3
Decommissioning Branch in the Office of Nuclear 4
Material Safety and Safeguards at NRC=s headquarters 5
in Washington, DC. Im joined this evening by a 6
couple of members of my staff. I have Ted Smith on 7
my left here, and Kim Conway on my right. They are 8
both project managers in my group.
9 We are here this evening to conduct a 10 meeting to briefly present information on the 11 decommissioning process for commercial nuclear power 12 plants, and mostly to obtain feedback and suggestions 13 from you on Community Advisory Board best practices.
14 We recognize that you do not have a CAB or a citizens 15 advisory board right now, but we know there are issues 16 that you are passionate about or have an interest in.
17 We chose Palisades to hold a meeting 18 because we received a number of requests from the 19 public, and then the law had asked us to consider 20 geographical diversity in holding these meetings.
21 So, Michigan was chosen.
22 Were going to try to avoid overloading 23 you with a lot of jargon and acronyms at this time 24 this evening, but unfortunately, sometimes we just 25
4 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 find ourselves inescapably doing those things. You 1
will hear the word NEIMA mentioned numerous times.
2 It stands for the Nuclear Energy Innovation and 3
Modernization Act. It was passed by the Congress in 4
late December, and signed by the President on January 5
14th of this year.
6 NEIMA has several requirements for the 7
Nuclear Regulatory Commission, one of which is why we 8
are here this evening. In Section 108, NEIMA requires 9
the NRC to prepare a report to Congress on the best 10 practices for Community Advisory Boards in the 11 communities around decommissioning nuclear power 12 plants. It also requires the NRC to hold a minimum 13 of 10 meetings, and this is within the emergency 14 planning zone of a decommissioning plant. Since 15 Palisades is preparing I guess for decommissioning in 16 the near future with the announcement that this plant 17 would be shutting down in 2022, we felt it appropriate 18 to be here tonight.
19 Since we cant hold meetings at every 20 nuclear power plant presently in decommissioning, we 21 also held a webinar on August 8th. How many of you 22 were able to participate in that? Good, good, good!
23 Were going to repeat some of that just to refresh 24 what we said in that particular webinar about 25
5 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 decommissioning and, excuse me, Community Advisory 1
Boards.
2 Again, our goal tonight is to provide a 3
brief overview of the NRCs experience with 4
decommissioning, with the recognition that this may 5
be new for many of you since the Palisades recently 6
announced those plans.
7 So, the picture that is up on the slide 8
is a picture of Yankee Rowe which is in Massachusetts.
9 It underwent decommissioning, and the license was 10 terminated I believe in 2007. But that was part of 11 the reactor containment being cut up.
12 So, on the next slide please, first, let 13 me tell you how things will proceed tonight. First, 14 I need you to know that the NRC calls this a category 15 three meeting, which means we are to hear your 16 comments on citizens advisory board. We will be in 17 listening mode for as much as possible. Some 18 introductions and a brief presentation on the 19 decommissioning process and our experience will 20 hopefully set the stage for comments and discussion 21 which will follow.
22 We want to thank the Mendel Center for 23 the use of the Hanson Theatre tonight. In the 24 unlikely case of an emergency, youll be notified by 25
6 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 an alarm or an announcement, and should proceed 1
through the marked doors located at the front or the 2
back of the room that have exit signs. Restrooms are 3
located outside the doors and down the hall to the 4
left and right.
5 I would like to provide you a few ground 6
rules before we go to the comment session, and well 7
do that right after we go through our presentation.
8 So, with that, Im going to turn it over to Ted Smith 9
who will provide some additional information.
10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Bruce. So, our 11 decommissioning regulations are performance-based and 12 risk-informed. What that really means is that we 13 focus on things that are important to safety. We 14 also have extensive decommissioning experience. As 15 you can see in this graphic, weve regulated and 16 completed the decommissioning at a lot of sites over 17 the last 20 years. In fact, the NRC has regulated 18 the completion of decommissioning at more power 19 reactors than in all of the countries in the world 20 combined. NRC has completed decommissioning at about 21 75 complex material, research and test reactor, and 22 commercial power plants over the last 20 years.
23 So, now let me talk a little more locally.
24 I
want to point out that weve had some 25
7 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 decommissioning activities in Michigan. So, were 1
going to highlight some that have been completed, 2
some that are underway, or that we expect to begin in 3
the near future.
4 At the top of the figure is Big Rock Point 5
which was a 75 megawatt boiling water reactor in 6
Charlevoix County; Breckenridge in the middle, and 7
AAR in Detroit were complex material sites in which 8
weve completed decommissioning activities. Ford was 9
a research reactor with the University of Michigan 10 which has completed decommissioning. Fermi 1 was a 11 fast breeder liquid sodium reactor in Monroe County, 12 which is about 95 percent completed to the 13 decommissioning process. Palisades here in Covert is 14 still operational but, as Bruce mentioned, the 15 licensee has announced their plans for permanent 16 shutdown in 2022.
17 So, Im going to talk a little bit more 18 about these, just show you some pictures and talk 19 through them in the next few slides.
20 AAR in Livonia, so here we have an aerial 21 of the site in 2007 when we did some initial 22 decommissioning. Then we went back again in the 2014 23 timeframe and did some more. You can see what the 24 site looks like in 2018. The property owner did do 25
8 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 some additional building removal after they had 1
completed the radiological decommissioning.
2 The University of Michigan Ford reactor, 3
heres pictures in 2013, and about -- Im sorry, 4
excuse me, let me correct that date. The original 5
picture is from 1955. It was first operated in 57.
6 It completed decommissioning in 2013.
7 The next I want to talk about a little 8
bit is Big Rock Point. It completed decommissioning 9
in August 2006. In these two photos, you can see Big 10 Rock Point is named after the Big Rock which is a 11 historic landmark. Here is a picture of the plant as 12 it existed before decommissioning with the Big Rock 13 in the foreground, and a picture from where the plant 14 was of the Big Rock in the background. It was 15 licensed in 1962.
16 Moving on, Fermi 1. Fermi 1 is in 17 progress of decommissioning. In here you can see 18 photos of the original construction of loading as it 19 was when it was operational, and then a more recent 20 photo from the 1990's. So, the licensee has removed 21 the majority of the reactor material from the site.
22 Theres no spent fuel on site. The bulk sodium, the 23 reactor vessel, primary system piping, and major 24 components have been removed.
25
9 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 The site consists of six main buildings 1
and several smaller gallery buildings and 2
interconnections. Physical dismantling is 95 percent 3
complete, and about 99 percent of radioactivity is 4
removed.
5 So, now lets shift a little bit and talk 6
about NEIMA. Just to expand a little more, as Bruce 7
mentioned, this is the Nuclear Energy Innovation and 8
Modernization Act. Specifically, there are a lot of 9
sections to NEIMA. Were here tonight to talk about 10 Section 108, and Section 108 directed the NRC to have 11 public meetings on best practices for CABs.
12 So, the legislation was signed on January 13 14th. That Section 108 requires a report identifying 14 best practices for establishment and operation of 15 local Community Advisory Boards for the 16 decommissioning of nuclear power reactors, including 17 lessons learned from citizens advisory boards that 18 are in existence. A report is due to Congress by 19 July 14th, 2020. The task has been assigned to 20 Bruces branch in which Kim and I reside.
21 A federal register notice was published 22 soliciting comments for public meetings to discuss 23 the CAB best practices. That was issued on March 24 18th, 2019. The public meeting locations were 25
10 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 determined in June of this year, and then we just 1
recently completed a process through the OMB by which 2
we get clearance to ask the questions. So, that was 3
completed on August 8th, and those questions, that 4
questionnaire has been posted on our website.
5 On that, Ill turn the presentation over 6
to Kim.
7 MS. CONWAY: Thanks, Ted. Before we 8
elaborate on the decommissioning process, we thought 9
it would be useful to provide a simple definition of 10 the goal of decommissioning. As we state on this 11 slide, the NRCs overarching objective is to ensure 12 that any residual radioactivity is within federal 13 limits so that the site may be released for 14 unrestricted use in the future.
15 So, how does the decommissioning process 16 actually work? The NRC requirements are designed to 17 protect workers and the public throughout the 18 decommissioning process, and the public environment 19 after the plants license is terminated. The NRC has 20 strict rules governing nuclear power plant 21 decommissioning and the storage of spent nuclear 22 fuel. The NRC communicates with the public during 23 the decommissioning process in many ways, including 24 publicly available licensing documents, inspection 25
11 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 reports, public meetings, congressional briefings, 1
and updates to state and local government officials.
2 The NRC also strongly encourages the 3
creation of Community Advisory Boards, or CABs, to 4
enhance the free flow of information about 5
decommissioning activities between the licensee, 6
local officials, and the public. Well talk more 7
about the establishment of CABs as well as those 8
boards already in existence later in this 9
presentation.
10 Even before a
plant shuts
- down, 11 activities are ongoing that will help with the 12 decommissioning process. While operating, the 13 licensee maintains records important to 14 decommissioning such as financial records, records 15 related to radioactive spills, material history at 16 the site, annual reports of plant operations, 17 radiological and environmental monitoring reports, 18 things of that nature. Additionally, once the 19 licensee has decided to permanently cease operations, 20 other planning activities begin, including the 21 identification and selection of a decommissioning 22 strategy, which well discuss later, and site 23 characterization. The licensee can also prepare and 24 submit a decommissioning planning document called the 25
12 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 post-shutdown decommissioning activities report, or 1
PSDAR, before the plant shuts down.
2 There are several steps that take place 3
in conjunction with the permanent shutdown of a US 4
nuclear power plant. These steps are spelled out in 5
the NRC regulations. Once the reactor has been 6
operated for the last time, the plant owner must first 7
submit a written certification to the NRC that they 8
have permanently ceased operations within 30 days of 9
their decision to not continue operations. Next, 10 when nuclear fuel has been permanently removed from 11 the reactor, the owner must submit another written 12 certification to the NRC.
13 Once these two notifications have been 14 made, by law, the company is not authorized to operate 15 the reactor again. They cant reload fuel into the 16 reactor vessel. They can no longer operate the plant.
17 To operate the plant again, the owner would need to 18 apply for a new operating license.
19 As I mentioned earlier, prior to or 20 within two years of permanent shutdown, the NRC 21 requires the submittal of the plants PSDAR, which 22 provides a
general overview of the proposed 23 decommissioning activities and schedule, as well as 24 the associated costs.
25
13 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 There are different courses of actions 1
for plant owners as they plan for decommissioning.
2 They may decide to pursue immediate dismantlement 3
which we refer to as the DECON alternative. Under 4
DECON, structures and equipment related to nuclear 5
power production are decontaminated and removed.
6 Once the demolition and decontamination work is 7
completed, the company would need to demonstrate that 8
any remaining radioactivity on the site meets the 9
criteria for unrestricted release of the property.
10 Another option for plant owners is 11 placing the facility in storage for a period of time, 12 and then proceeding with dismantlement and cleanup 13 work at a future date. This alternative is referred 14 to as SAFSTOR. It involves preparing the structures 15 for long-term storage, and then monitoring them 16 throughout the storage period. Preparations for 17 SAFSTOR would include draining piping and pumps, de-18 energizing electrical systems, and securing various 19 structures.
20 Plant owners may also use a combination 21 of SAFSTOR and DECON. As an example, they may do 22 some dismantlement work, or abandon some systems in 23 place not long after the plant permanently shuts down 24 and then place the facility in storage for a number 25
14 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of years before resuming the remainder of the 1
deconstruction. Again, confirmatory surveys of any 2
remaining residual radioactivity would need to be 3
performed once this dismantlement work is eventually 4
completed.
5 Keep in mind that it takes many years to 6
construct the power plant, and decommissioning a 7
nuclear power plant typically takes about seven to 8
ten years. Another way to think of it is a giant 9
deconstruction project. There are miles of cables 10 and pipes removed, and tons of materials hauled away.
11 Under NRC regulations, nuclear power 12 plant decommissioning must be completed within 60 13 years of shutdown. Keep in mind that this refers to 14 the portions of the site that were used for nuclear 15 power production and do not involve, for example, 16 returning the entire property to green field 17 condition.
18 The basis for the 60-year timeframe is 19 this: theres 50 years in SAFSTOR to allow 20 radioactive decay for the shorter-lived radioactive 21 materials, plus 10 years of radiological 22 decommissioning work to terminate the NRC license.
23 It is not uncommon for green fielding to 24 occur after the termination of the NRC license, such 25
15 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 as we have the Maine Yankee site shown on the bottom 1
of this slide. At the top of the slide is a photo 2
that Bruce took at Rancho Seco out in California.
3 This plant was permanently shut down in 1989, and 4
this area of the site was released in 2009. The owner 5
has not demolished any of the structures and has 6
actually built two combined cycle generating units at 7
the site to take advantage of the transmission lines 8
and the switch yard, as well as the availability of 9
a source of cooling water.
10 When a reactor ceases operation, the 11 NRCs work to ensure safety and security continues.
12 Specifically, the NRC ensures through a continuing 13 oversight process that operational safety controls, 14 security measures, and emergency preparedness remains 15 sufficient to protect public health and safety. The 16 NRCs inspection program for decommissioning of 17 nuclear power plants as well as the dry fuel storage 18 inspection program are well defined and consistent.
19 These programs are outlined in NRC Inspection Manual 20 Chapters 2561 and 2690, respectively. This is shown 21 on the slide.
22 The key objectives of these programs are 23 to verify that the spent fuel is being safely and 24 securely stored, that decommissioning activities are 25
16 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 being conducted safely, and that site operations and 1
license termination activities are performed in 2
accordance with federal regulations. When carrying 3
out these programs, our key focus is on safety and 4
security.
5 The NRCs decommissioning inspection 6
program assures that appropriate oversight continues 7
after a safe plant shutdown and the removal of spent 8
fuel from the reactor. Specifically, the reactor 9
decommissioning inspection manual has procedures 10 designated as core which are required to be performed 11 annually, and procedures listed as discretionary 12 which are to be performed on an as-needed basis, and 13 thats based on activity or issues or, you know, 14 things that we notice going on at the site.
15 I want to emphasize that oversight, 16 inspections, and monitoring are performed throughout 17 the decommissioning process.
During these 18 inspections, the NRC verifies that the controls and 19 the methods for the safe storage of radioactive 20 material, including site structures and equipment, 21 are being maintained in accordance with regulations 22 and with licensee commitments. In addition, NRC 23 inspectors will be on hand for major work activities 24 at the site and at least once per year.
25
17 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Examples of major work activities could 1
include the demolition of a major structure, the 2
removal of a significant component such as the reactor 3
vessel, the transfer of spent fuel from the spent 4
fuel pool to dry cask storage, things like that. The 5
NRC can always take enforcement action against the 6
plant owner should violations be identified during 7
these activities and determined to be of that 8
significance.
9 There are some questions that frequently 10 come up regarding the management of spent fuel during 11 and after decommissioning, and our review and 12 oversight of those activities. The most asked 13 question is what becomes of the spent nuclear fuel 14 left behind from the plants operation? The current 15 answer is that, in almost all cases, its removed 16 from the spent fuel pool to be stored on site in a 17 dry cask storage insulation often called an 18 independent spent fuel storage installation, or 19 ISFSI, until an interim or a long-term disposal 20 solution is available.
21 At all nuclear reactor sites with ISFSIs, 22 the casks sit on a reinforced concrete pad within the 23 protected area of the plant. The casks themselves 24 are robust storage units approved by the NRC for use 25
18 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 throughout the nuclear industry. Typically, the fuel 1
sits in a stainless steel cask thats surrounded by 2
a thick concrete over-pack, vents at the bottom and 3
top allow for a convective airflow to keep the fuel 4
cooled. NRC inspectors who specialize in spent fuel 5
transfers and storage are on hand when the ISFSI pad 6
is being built and of course during the actual fuel 7
movements at each site.
8 With that, Ill now turn it back over to 9
Bruce to discuss public involvement and NEIMA Section 10 108 which is the reason why we are here tonight.
11 MR. WATSON: Thanks, Kim. First, Id 12 like to point out there are already multiple 13 opportunities for public participation in the 14 decommissioning process. For example, each license 15 amendment request allows for the opportunity to 16 provide public comments and request a hearing. The 17 NRC also conducts public meetings in the vicinity of 18 decommissioning nuclear power plants to discuss the 19 post-shutdown decommissioning activities report when 20 its issued to us from the utility. We also hold 21 public meetings for partial site releases and license 22 termination plans.
23 The NRC staff also frequently is invited 24 to speak on decommissioning topics at state and local 25
19 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 government hearings, meetings, and other events, and 1
routinely participate as guest presenters at citizens 2
advisory panel meetings, which really finally brings 3
us to the topic at hand for tonights meeting: best 4
practices learned from Community Advisory Boards at 5
decommissioning nuclear power plants.
6 So, what is a Community Advisory Board?
7 While no one size fits all models for decommissioning 8
CABs, some of the general tenets of such organizations 9
are listed on the slide. We should also point out 10 that CABs maybe have differing names such as community 11 engagement panels, or citizen advisory panels, or 12 something similar. As previously mentioned, the NRC 13 doesnt have the authority to direct anyone including 14 NRC licensees to sponsor or participate in the 15 decommissioning -- excuse me, I got that wrong.
16 NRC does not have the authority to direct 17 anyone but the NRC licensees to sponsor or participate 18 in the decommissioning process. For many years, we 19 have recommended that the power reactor licensees 20 involved in decommissioning activities form a
21 community committee or other advisory group aimed at 22 fostering communication and information exchange 23 between the licensee and members of the community 24 that may be affected by the decommissioning.
25
20 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 So, you see on another slide, go to the 1
next one please, this has yielded fairly good 2
responsibilities, excuse me,
- yes, CAB 3
responsibilities. Like I said, no one size that fits 4
all for CABs, neither is there a set of single topics 5
for each board. Instead, our observations and 6
experiences have been that such decommissioning CABs 7
adopt to the specific concerns of the community and 8
region where the decommissioning is taking place.
9 Topics, whose level of interests varies 10 between the
- sites, include transportation of 11 radioactive waste, socioeconomic impact of the plant 12 being permanently shut down, and interim and long-13 term plans for the storage of nuclear fuel. By 14 actively engaging the community, obtaining local 15 citizens views and concerns regarding the 16 decommissioning process and spent fuel storage 17 issues, the licensees can better understand and 18 consider these views and maintain better relations 19 with the local citizens, and local communities can be 20 informed of decommissioning activities.
21 Also, if a CAB is formed in the early 22 part of the decommissioning process, the CAB can 23 provide an organized forum in which the licensee 24 serves the community by providing information on the 25
21 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 decommissioning plans and so that local community can 1
provide feedback to the licensee and state officials 2
on the plans for dismantling, demolition, those 3
criteria, and waste transportation. While site 4
restoration is not an NRC requirement, some CABs also 5
discuss this, and it can provide input to the licensee 6
as to what they would like to see the site look like 7
once all the radioactive material is removed and 8
consider future uses of the site. Next slide please.
9 As already mentioned, the concept of a 10 decommissioning CAB is not new. Versions of these 11 organizations exist at many of the earliest nuclear 12 power plants to enter decommissioning. In 2005, the 13 Electric Power Research Institute, or EPRI, published 14 the Maine Yankee decommissioning experience report.
15 In this lessons learned report, the nuclear industry 16 recognized that engaging the local community and 17 officially forming a CAB is a good practice.
18 Specifically, the EPRI report states that 19 the CABs provide an important window for the public 20 in addressing the process, in the process of 21 decommissioning and providing the opportunity for 22 issues of local concern to be addressed both within 23 and without the strict process defined by 24 regulations. Next slide please.
25
22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 This brings us to today. Here is where 1
the CABs exist at a majority of the decommissioning 2
nuclear power
- plants, although they may have 3
differing compositions and invent many forms 4
depending on the factors, such as the CABs sponsors, 5
state requirements, and the topics of interest. The 6
NRC staff acknowledges the desire for and value of 7
community involvement in the decommissioning of 8
nuclear power plants.
Nuclear power plant 9
decommissioning is a complex process, and the NRC 10 believes the impact of the decommissioning and 11 termination of a nuclear power plant license needs to 12 be communicated to the local community.
13 We have also observed that the community 14 interest in nuclear reactor decommissioning 15 activities can vary depending on the location and 16 historical relationship between the licensee, the 17 state, local governments, labor unions, and members 18 of the public and other stakeholders. As an 19 independent safety regulator, the NRC assures that 20 all members of the public are given fair and equal 21 opportunity to comment on the licensees 22 decommissioning plans through a license amendment 23 process, the NRC-sponsored public meetings, and other 24 forums.
25
23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Therefore, the NRC does not officially 1
recognize or endorse any specific special interest 2
group, public or private organizations, community 3
groups, coalitions, or individuals. This approach 4
assures that one or more of the organizations do not 5
dominate a public forum, and allows for the members 6
of the public to provide alternative and differing 7
viewpoints and comments to the NRC. Lets see here.
8 Next slide.
9 This slide, I wanted to remind everybody 10 because weve been talking for quite a long time now 11 and I apologize for that, but we thought we should 12 set the stage for the meeting. But the real purpose 13 of the meeting is to identify the best practices for 14 the establishment and operation of local Community 15 Advisory Boards, or CABs, for decommissioning power 16 plants. This is basically directly out of the law.
17 The purpose of a CAB is to establish, to 18 foster communications and information exchange 19 between the licensee planning for and involved in the 20 decommissioning activities and the members of the 21 community that decommissioning activities may affect.
22 So, thats our real purpose tonight, and I want to 23 really stay on process with that. Thats our sole 24 principle in being here this evening. Again, we 25
24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 recognize that you dont have a CAB but we know there 1
are issues that you have passion about and are 2
interested in. Next slide please.
3 Im not going to go through the next slide 4
verbatim, but it does provide a list of information 5
that we were going to need for producing this report.
6 So, you know, this lists the typical topics that were 7
interested in, the topics that you can bring to a 8
board, how they are used to inform the decision-making 9
- process, what are the interactions and the 10 compositions with the commission and the federal 11 agencies to support the board commissions, excuse me, 12 overall understanding of those, and how much a board 13 could offer the opportunities for public engagement 14 in the process. Next slide please.
15 As we mentioned, we had an OMB clearance 16 for questions that we were required to get approval 17 for to ask the public questions. Many of these are 18 on the slides. We have copies of the questionnaire 19 out front. If you werent able to grab one on the 20 way in, well make them available after the meeting.
21 But here are the typical questions we 22 wanted answered or provide feedback from for those 23 people that, for those sites that have a citizens 24 advisory panel. Im not going to go into those on 25
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the slide. Lets go to the next slide.
1 But the second half of the NEIMA Section 2
108 questions are focused on CAB operations and what 3
are the opportunities for people to have. Also, if 4
you had a CAB, what would you like to have it all 5
about as far as what you think they should be involved 6
in? Then the last part of the questionnaire deals 7
with plants that dont have a CAB, such as Palisades.
8 The questions are oriented to has the 9
licensee or State considered the establishment of a 10 CAB, the reasons for not having a CAB, and how does 11 the licensee or state provide opportunities for 12 public engagement throughout the decommissioning 13 process, and in general, what are the advantages of 14 having a CAB, a local CAB, and what are the 15 disadvantages of not having a CAB. So, these are 16 part of the questionnaire that we would like for 17 people to provide us feedback on. Next slide please.
18 You have the opportunity to fill out that 19 questionnaire online. This is our website where you 20 can get that questionnaire and fill it out online and 21 return it.
You can scan those completed 22 questionnaires and send those to this e-mail box, 23 neima108.resource@nrc.gov, or you can mail the 24 completed questionnaires to Kim, and shell be happy 25
26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 to receive those. If you want more information on 1
our initiative on Section 108, we have a website set 2
up that you can go to. Heres the link for it that 3
you can provide more information on our activities 4
associated with Section 108. So, next slide.
5 This slide shows the United States. We 6
have gained experience with decommissioning of 7
nuclear power plants. We currently have 11 facilities 8
in active decommissioning. We are expecting that we 9
will terminate the licenses at Humboldt Bay, La 10 Crosse, and Zion 1 and 2 in the next year. As a 11 matter of fact, two of those, actually all three of 12 these sites, we will be at the sites conducting 13 confirmatory surveys with our regional inspectors to 14 ensure that the site has been completely cleaned up 15 and met our criteria for unrestricted release.
16 We have 11 plants in SAFSTOR. As weve 17 explained earlier, it means that theyve been placed 18 in a safe and stable condition and are maintained by 19 the owners pending dismantlement work in the future.
20 So, with those, well move on to the next slide.
21 We have nine plants that have announced 22 inspection, excuse me, that have announced also that 23 were going to shut down, which would include 24 Palisades. On this slide are just a number of 25
27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 references for your information that can help you 1
with finding out more information. I would also 2
recommend you look at our YouTube videos on 3
decommissioning.
4 If you really want to get to these 5
references, its very simple. You go to www.nrc.gov 6
and look under Radioactive Waste, and under there 7
there will be a Decommissioning tab for all the 8
decommissioning activities. So, its basically a 9
three-step process.
10 With that, I also included a slide here.
11 You can also provide, if you had further questions or 12 comments on the Section 108 webinar that we held on 13 August 8th, you can provide those to David McIntyre 14 and the Office of Public Affairs. We have been 15 receiving questions and comments throughout the 16 webinar and we will provide some responses to some of 17 those in the future. Again, we have the webinar 18 providing the basic information.
19 With that, were going to go to tonights 20 meeting which is the ground rules. So, I want to 21 remind everybody that the meeting is being 22 transcribed. Our gentleman Stuart is up here, he is 23 going to be transcribing the meeting. Once we get 24 the official transcript from him, we will make it 25
28 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 available on our public website.
1 With that, I would like to, anybody from 2
the NRC staff who is here would like to introduce 3
themselves starting over here.
4 MR. GIESNNER: My name is Jack Giesnner, 5
Im the deputy administrator in the Midwest Region, 6
Region III. Thanks for coming.
7 MR. LaFLAMME: Im Paul LaFlamme, senior 8
resident at Palisades Nuclear Power Plant.
9 MS. WINSLOW: My name is Julie Winslow.
10 Im currently the resident onsite here at Palisades.
11 MS. MEYERS: Valerie Meyers, Im out of 12 our regional office.
13 MS. MITLYNG: Im Viktoria Mitlyng, Im 14 the public affairs officer at the Region III. Welcome 15 to this meeting.
16 MR. WATSON: With that, are there any 17 elected officials here who would like to make a 18 statement? Yes? When you go up to the mic, could 19 you provide your name for us so Stuart gets it clear?
20 MR. RUSHLOW: My name is Jake Rushlow, 21 and Im here on behalf of Michigan State 22 Representative Pauline Wenzel. Representative Wenzel 23 is the Vice-Chair of the Michigan Energy Policy 24 Committee and welcomes the NRC to Lake Michigan 25
29 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 College and the Michigan=s 79th District.
1 Getting into the topic of our meeting, as 2
home to two operating nuclear power plants, Southwest 3
Michigan is familiar with the benefits that these 4
plants provide to our region in terms of economic 5
activity and safe, clean, and reliable electricity.
6 Both Palisades and the DC Cook plants have made 7
transparency and public engagement a priority, 8
communicating regularly with the state and local 9
officials, as well as maintaining an active presence 10 in their communities.
11 Since announcing the 2022 closure of 12 Palisades, Entergy has maintained active 13 communication, public information
- sharing, and 14 transparency. With the future formation of a locally 15 created Community Advisory Panel, we expect that high 16 standard and positive community partnership to 17 continue.
18 We are blessed to live in a nation united 19 in the richness of our diversity and regional 20 differences. Rather than proposing a nationwide 21 model or procedure for the creation of these panels, 22 they should reflect the values of the communities 23 they serve. In the case of Palisades, a future 24 advisory panel should be driven by municipal and 25
30 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 county
- leaders, law enforcement, area school 1
districts, county health officials, and appropriate 2
state agency representatives.
3 Thank you very much for being here.
4 MR. WATSON: Youre welcome. Thank you 5
for your statement. Are there any other elected 6
officials who would like to make a statement?
7 Are there any representatives of Native 8
American tribes that would like to make a public 9
statement?
10 Hearing none, Nick Culp from Entergys 11 government affairs has asked that they provide a brief 12 statement at the beginning.
13 MR. CULP: Sure. Well, we know that 14 theres other topics folks would like to talk about 15 perhaps outside of the scope of todays meeting. So, 16 Otto Gustafson, raise your hand, and myself will be 17 available after the meeting.
18 We appreciate this opportunity to hear 19 from Southwest Michigan residents about how CABs 20 should be created. I think we all agree that theres 21 not a one size fits all model for this. So, thank 22 you again for being here today.
23 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Okay, the ground 24 rules for tonight, number one, we dont have many 25
31 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 speakers, at least signed up. So, with that, I would 1
like everyone have the opportunity to speak five or 2
six minutes, and that generally is plenty of time to 3
make your comments if you will. Please state your 4
name as I said. If you have a fairly long name, we 5
may ask you to spell it so that Stuart gets the 6
correct spelling. So, please speak up. Even though 7
we have microphones, please speak into the microphone 8
so he can clearly hear you.
9 Again, I would like to stay on process.
10 We are here to talk about citizens advisory panels.
11 We did not bring a tremendous technical staff here 12 with us to discuss all issues that we generally would 13 speak to at decommissioning meetings. So, were here 14 for the sole purpose of hearing your comments on 15 citizens advisory boards.
16 So, with that, is there a Ms. Barbara 17 Potter here? Youre trapped.
18 MS. POTTER: Hi, Bruce. Thanks for having 19 the meeting.
20 MR. WATSON: Can you speak into the 21 microphone please?
22 MS. POTTER: I will. My name is Iris 23 Potter, Im from Kalamazoo. I am a member of the 24 Palisades Shutdown Campaign Coalition and Michigan 25
32 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Safe Energy Future Kalamazoo Chapter. Thank you.
1 I want to say that I support an 2
independently-established local regional CAB, 3
comprised of a majority of citizens of course, which 4
must be the true intent of decommissioning CABs. I 5
would also support a state-established and funded 6
CAB, also with a majority of citizens. Now, I say 7
the above because citizens on the 50-mile radius zone, 8
which I am part of, and beyond are very concerned 9
about safety. Were concerned about the current 10 safety at Palisades, and so we definitely have 11 concerns about the decommissioning process.
12 Were also concerned for another reason, 13 because the NRC will likely be approving another 14 transfer of this utility. Entergy will probably be 15 transferred to HDI, Holtec, with a very limited time 16 for decommissioning, way less than 60 years, even 17 less than 10. So, we have concerns about that 18 company. We have concerns about the safety, our 19 health already, of this plant, the lake, our lake, 20 our Great Lakes. So, with that, we realize that the 21 true intent does need to be for citizens. So, a CAB 22 will always have to be a majority of citizens.
23 Now, I noticed on the slide that you had, 24 you listed local officials, et cetera. But again, it 25
33 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 really did not go into citizen participation. So, 1
that is going to be key, and I know if that doesnt 2
happen, that youll definitely hear about that.
3 So, I just want to say that the concerns 4
are now, the concerns are the future, and the concerns 5
are for the future generation. What about the 6
restoration? Whats that really going to look like?
7 So, we have health, safety, major concerns in our 8
area.
9 Currently, the casks are sitting on the 10 beach. The lake is rising. So, you can see, were 11 in a very unique position here being near water. So, 12 I thank you for your time and I appreciate it.
13 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Okay, the next 14 person listed is Ms. Rebecca Mandrell. No? Going to 15 pass, okay. The other one, the next person is Ms.
16 Carolyn Ferry. Carolyn is a very nice name, its my 17 daughters name, one of my daughters.
18 MS. FERRY: I dont know if this is on.
19 MR. WATSON: Its on.
20 MS. FERRY: Is this on?
21 MR. WATSON: Its on.
22 MS. FERRY: Okay, it just doesnt work 23 very well. We cant hear back there. My name is 24 Carolyn Ferry, oh, this is better.
25
34 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. WATSON: Well, feedback though.
1 MS. FERRY: Yes. I represent Palisades 2
Park, the homeowners community immediately south of 3
the power plant property. Weve been around since 4
1905, and there are currently approximately 218 homes 5
in our community.
6 The reason for this meeting is for us to 7
share with you what kind of input a Community Advisory 8
Board should have in the decommissioning process. We 9
believe a CAB should not be controlled or funded by 10 the nuclear industry but by a public source such as 11 state or local government.
12 The topics a CAB should provide input on 13 include every important step that is taken in the 14 decommissioning
- process, including should any 15 proposed license transfer be approved. Each activity 16 in the decommissioning process should be disclosed to 17 the CAB, and it should have important input on any 18 such activity that has an impact on local life 19 including the potential release of radiation into the 20 air or the water or anything creating noise or traffic 21 or other local concerns. Also, how should the spent 22 nuclear materials be safely stored, that should be an 23 area for input from the Community Advisory Board.
24 The Community Advisory Board should not 25
35 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 include people who represent the nuclear industry.
1 The licensee is already here to do that. In order to 2
be effective, the Community Advisory Board should 3
hold all of the licensees activities up to the light 4
for public input. There should be no secrets.
5 The nuclear materials left next door to 6
us on the shifting sand dunes will be there for a 7
long time, perhaps forever. We hope for our 8
descendants to be able to live there safely a long 9
time after all of us are gone. Thanks.
10 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Lets see. The 11 next person, I hope I get the name correct, Ms. Jan 12 Boudart. Okay, take your time now that youre way up 13 there.
14 MS. BOUDART: Im Jan Boudart of the 15 Nuclear Energy Information Service. I want to thank 16 the NRC for calling these meetings and the subsequent 17 meetings, and for giving us the opportunity to speak.
18 My understanding of the purpose of these 19 meetings is to establish a panel of individuals who 20 will follow the various activities and expenses 21 involved in dismantling merchant nuclear power 22 plants, making sure of the safety of workers and 23 members of the community, and that the economics of 24 the various operations are available and properly 25
36 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 used.
1 My first comment is regarding the name 2
the NRC has chosen for these panels. Nuclear 3
decommissioning citizens advisory panels have existed 4
for several years now. They already had a name that 5
they gave themselves, NDCAP, sometimes including the 6
name of the particular reactors being dismantled; for 7
example, Palisades nuclear decommissioning citizens 8
activist panel. But the name I heard today is the 9
Palisades Shutdown Coalition, an entity that already 10 existed before the NRC called this meeting and foisted 11 upon everyone the name that they wanted. That name 12 NDCAP explained for interested people that this is a 13 nuclear activity and involves the dismantling of a 14 nuclear facility, while at the same time revealing 15 that the panel was advisory or activist.
16 The name citizens advisory board is not 17 descriptive. It hides the nuclear intent of the 18 activity and does not convey that an expensive and 19 valuable resource is being removed from the 20 community. NRC, by changing the name of an entity 21 that already exists, is attempting to take control of 22 this activity and change its nature to fit better 23 into their secretive character. Just as in the Old 24 Testament when God let man name the animals, it was 25
37 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 a way of giving man dominion over them. This is an 1
accepted interpretation of that from many revision 2
classes that Ive taken.
3 The NRC, by turning its back on the name 4
already in use, is attempting to take control of the 5
panel and shape its mission. I personally reject the 6
change in name and earnestly request, and in fact I 7
have a definite ask, that the NRC revert to the name 8
we have already given ourselves as a more descriptive 9
and more in line with the hard work and passionate 10 caring that the citizens involved have shown.
11 Along with the name change, the NRC has 12 adopted a common term for the people who will be on 13 the panel, stakeholders. Stakeholders is loaded with 14 the implication that those who have risked the most 15 money have the largest stake and should be more equal 16 than the less well-to-do members of the group.
17 Problem is every person, rich or poor, young or old, 18 male, female and everything in between, is a 19 stakeholder. But I am not speaking of a money stake.
20 I speak of the influence nuclear fission asserts on 21 the bodily health of the individuals in its horizon.
22 Looking at it this way, women have a 23 bigger stake than men. Children have a bigger stake 24 than adults. Those in utero and yet to be born have 25
38 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the biggest stake of all. It is young parents and 1
old grandparents who must speak up for them. Thus, 2
there should always be at least one couple with small 3
children included in any NDCAP now and in the future.
4 In addition, more women than men should be chosen for 5
the panel because the effect of radiation upon them 6
is greater.
7 Again, I thank you for listening to my 8
views on this subject. Here is my ask. Dont change 9
the name of what already exists. Continue with the 10 descriptive name that is already chosen. We are a 11 nuclear decommissioning and dismantling citizens 12 action panel. Allow those with the biggest stake in 13 the outcome of the nuclear fission project to have 14 leadership positions on the panel. Thank you.
15 MR. WATSON: Thank you very much. The 16 next person on our list is Mr. Jeff Mills. Jeff is 17 over here, okay.
18 MR. MILLS: Good evening. Welcome to Van 19 Buren County. My name is Jeff Mills, superintendent 20 of Van Buren Intermediate School District.
21 Im going to kind of go in a little bit 22 different direction. But, you know, we provide, the 23 ISD provides special education, career and technical 24 education, and we offer services toward twelve local 25
39 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 school districts, mainly in Van Buren County. School 1
districts range in size from Meadow One Consolidated 2
with approximately 3,800 K-12 students to Woods 3
School District that has 25 K-8 students. South Haven 4
and Covert Public Schools are also part of the Van 5
Buren ISD service area.
6 The tax revenue generated from Entergy 7
Palisades provides revenue to assist with the 8
services to all twelve of these school systems. In 9
addition, I wanted to say thank you to Entergy 10 Palisades for providing the main financial support 11 for the last 10 years for our Back to School Bonanza 12 which we hand out over 1,100 backpacks every year so 13 the children are ready to start, theyre ready to go 14 with the resources. Also, the month of August is 15 when this event takes place, and I will say we have 16 so many volunteers from the Entergy Palisades company 17 that help pack these backpacks and then come to the 18 actual event that just happened about a week and a 19 half ago, and they hand out these backpacks to the 20 families and the children.
21 So, I wanted to say thank you to Entergy 22 Palisades for providing that financial support, 23 providing the volunteer employees to be here, and 24 just to keep this event going for the last ten years.
25
40 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I hope it continues until 2022 and maybe further on.
1 But I also want to thank Mr. Darrell 2
Corbin and the other employees that have helped from 3
Palisades. They just had the newspaper article in 4
the Courier Leader that had many pictures of the 5
families receiving these backpacks, and youll see 6
the smiles on their faces if you get that newspaper.
7 The last thing I wanted to say is that 8
with the transition that youre going to be 9
undertaking with the decommissioning of the Entergy 10 Palisades plan, I would be very supportive of the 11 formation of a Community Advisory Board made up of 12 community leaders, participants that live and work 13 each day in these communities. If you need names of 14 agencies and leaders that I have worked with over the 15 last 20 years in Van Buren County, Id be more than 16 happy to provide you a list. As a school leader, the 17 safety of students, staff and community members is a 18 top priority for me.
19 Thank you for allowing me to be here this 20 evening.
21 MR. WATSON: Thank you for your comments.
22 Youre welcome. Our next speaker is Mr. John Faul, 23 and thats spelled F-a-u-l, right?
24 MR. FAUL: Correct. Thank you. Can you 25
41 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 hear me okay? My name is John Faul, Im the Van Buren 1
County administrator, and Im representing the Van 2
Buren County. The board of commissioners, they 3
werent able to make it tonight but they asked me to 4
express a few comments to you.
5 First of all, thank you for coming today 6
this morning and talking to us as governmental 7
entities, and tonight for the ability to make public 8
comments.
9 Two things Ive heard throughout the 10 evening comments and your presentation, and I dont 11 want to belabor the points, all of them very well 12 spoken and much more eloquent than I can make. But 13 what I heard mostly was community and safety. Those 14 were the two key components. As an aside, I do want 15 to say thank you to Entergy for being good community 16 partners, as Jeff alluded to, and communicating 17 safety issues to us throughout the whole course of 18 the operations of the plant.
19 But from a public appointed official 20 point of view, what is impacting us greatly is this 21 change. So, were changing the operation of the 22 plant, and were changing the operators of the plant.
23 In my career, what I see, change is inevitable, and 24 my job is to help curate and manage the change or the 25
42 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 uncertainty that comes with change. I really think 1
that Community Action Advisory Boards is key to 2
managing that uncertainty. However, its comprised, 3
as the community develops it, it certainly needs local 4
officials, elected public safety, and as other 5
speakers have pointed out, citizens, however thats 6
defined.
7 So, were a community, and not just a 8
community of a place. While I speak for Van Buren 9
County as a political boundary, we are a community 10 much larger than that comprised of different 11 components throughout three different counties at 12 least. I havent looked at the map recently, but it 13 stretches into Barry and Allegan and Van Buren, all 14 the way east into Kalamazoo. It represents citizens 15 from all sorts of different branches and all sorts of 16 different public entities. So, I think that board 17 needs to represent that community, and the 18 representation needs to focus on safety, however that 19 is defined, the continued operational safety, the 20 transfer of that safety, and the storage of the spent 21 fuel safety.
22 So, again, I want to focus on the 23 community action, or the community board should focus 24 on community; however, thats defined locally. I 25
43 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 want to stress that it should be local and we should 1
have a complete say in that. As much as I love my 2
partners in the state, you know, I want to make sure 3
local voice is heard and a major component of that.
4 So, with that being said, I want to again 5
thank you so much for your time and allowing me to 6
speak. Thank you.
7 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Sorry. Our next 8
speaker is Mr. Kevin Kamps. There he is.
9 MR. KAMPS: Hello, good evening. My name 10 is Kevin Kamps, and I serve as radioactive waste 11 specialist at Beyond Nuclear, which is based in Takoma 12 Park, Maryland. I also serve as a board of directors 13 member for Dont Waste Michigan, representing my 14 hometown Kalamazoo Chapter since 1992. I also serve 15 on the advisory board of Citizens for Alternatives to 16 Chemical Contamination based here in Michigan.
17 Thanks for the welcomes that were extended this 18 evening from others before. As a member of a family 19 who has resided in this area of Michigan since 1860, 20 I welcome you as well.
21 I would like to point out that the 22 decommissioning of Palisades has been anticipated for 23 a long time. But I have to wonder why were having 24 this meeting here tonight. Palisades had said it was 25
44 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 going to shut down on October 1st of 2018, and it did 1
not. So, now Palisades is saying its going to shut 2
down October 1st of 2022. Well see, I guess.
3 Certainly in those next three plus years of 4
operations, there is tremendous and increasing risk 5
as many of us have warned about for a long time.
6 So, the good news, when the reactor 7
shutdown happens, is that once the fuel leaves the 8
core, you cant have a core meltdown by definition.
9 So, that will be a good thing. No more high level 10 radioactive waste will be generated for which we have 11 no solution, and thats also a good thing. But the 12 problem is the lingering radioactive contamination of 13 the site which has now built up for a half century, 14 as well as the mother lode of radioactivity hazard 15 which is the irradiated nuclear fuel. So, of course, 16 those would be the main focus areas of this Community 17 Advisory Panel that is being discussed this evening.
18 I associate myself with the remarks of my colleagues 19 made earlier, like Iris Potter who expressed concern 20 about this company, Holtec/SNC-Lavalin, which is 21 poised to take over the license at Palisades from 22 Entergy.
23 Just to let folks know, if they dont 24
- know, in the
- room, the attorney general of 25
45 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Massachusetts has intervened against just such a move 1
by Holtec/SNC-Lavalin in the State of Massachusetts, 2
as has a local watchdog group, Pilgrim Watch. Ive 3
compiled a couple of lists of skeletons in the closet 4
for these companies, Holtec and SNC-Lavalin. Just 5
long story short, the corruption of SNC-Lavalin in 6
Canada is daily headline news and may take down the 7
Prime Minister in October.
8 Regarding Holtec, the list is very long.
9 A number of groups are also challenging Holtecs 10 application for centralized interim storage in New 11 Mexico. So, in that regard, the waste may be here 12 for a long time to come, almost certainly will because 13 Palisades still operating is at the back of that 14 export line.
15 I would like to touch on something. I 16 listened to most of the August 8th recording from 17 your webinar, and Im not sure which NRC staffer said 18 it. But in response to a question from the public 19 about the ongoing risks of high level radioactive 20 waste at shutdown sites, the NRC staffer on the line 21 said that pool to dry cask expedited transfer will 22 take place relatively quickly within a matter of 23 years, its not to be worried about.
24 The problem is that that is not a 25
46 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 requirement by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
1 That may be the standard practice of the industry for 2
the most part, but its not required. Its voluntary.
3 The NRC allows for companies to leave irradiated fuel 4
in the pools for decades into the future if they so 5
choose, which is a problem if you lose cooling in the 6
pool, which came pretty darn close to happening in 7
October of 2005 at Palisades when that 107-ton weight 8
dangled over the pool for a couple of days. Workers 9
tried to release the emergency brake and almost 10 succeeded, which would have plunged that weight 11 through the floor of the pool and who the hell knows 12 what would have happened, if that had happened. So, 13 the risks of the pool are significant. The risks of 14 the dry casks are significant.
15 We took a tour, a number of us, some of 16 us who are here on the room, it was June 11th of 2014, 17 at the invitation of Entergy. We took a site tour.
18 As I mentioned, Ive been following these issues for 19 a while. I was pretty shocked to see the cracking on 20 the exterior of the ventilated storage casks near the 21 lake shore made very visible by the attempted repair 22 apparently with epoxy which stained, streaked the 23 side of the container making the crack so visible.
24 The response from Entergys tour guide was that its 25
47 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 cosmetic. Well, that is the radiation shielding 1
around that high level radioactive waste. It was 2
supposed to last 100 years, and were not even a 3
quarter century into that time period yet. So, we 4
have a long way to go.
5 I found it a little humorous that our 6
comments are limited to six minutes. I took one 7
radioisotope, Iodine 129, hazardous persistence of 8
157 million years. So, you do the math. So, thats 9
one minute of public comment for 26 million years of 10 hazard.
11 So, we will be taking part at every turn 12 as we have, myself for 27 years, people who are at it 13 long before I was even born. There were groups in 14 Kalamazoo who petitioned against the construction of 15 Palisades before it was built in the mid 1960's.
16 There were opponents to this plant out here before it 17 was built, some of whom have stayed involved the whole 18 time. We will continue to stay involved.
19 On this Community Advisory Panel, I would 20 associate myself with the remarks made that this has 21 to be vast majority concerned people who live here, 22 people who have lived here their entire lives, and 23 generations in the past.
24 On my final point, I heard you ask the 25
48 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 question, are there any members of local tribal 1
nations here. I think the burden is on the NRC. You 2
have a government to government responsibility to 3
interact with the tribes of this area in a meaningful 4
way, and simply sending an e-mail or sending a letter 5
through the mail is not sufficient. So, there are 6
various tribes, the Pokagon Potawatomi headquartered 7
in Dowagiac, the Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians 8
up closer to Grand Rapids, who need to be very much 9
so a part of this process.
10 The Big Rock Point, sister plant of 11 Palisades, tremendous lessons to be learned. I have 12 a copy of a report that I wrote in 2006, Say Yes to 13 Michigan, Say No to the Plutonium State Park, 14 Backgrounder on Big Rock Point Nuclear Power Plant 15 Decommissioning. Tremendous lessons to be learned 16 from a tiny reactor, you mentioned 75 megawatts.
17 Palisades is more than order of magnitude bigger.
18 Big Rock Point released, by its own account, over 19 three million curies of hazardous ionizing 20 radioactivity into the environment. So, they spent 21
$366 million up there on decommissioning. This plant 22 is more than order of magnitude bigger, and yet the 23 decommissioning trust fund here is around half a 24 billion dollars because it has been rated to the tune 25
49 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of over $300 million just over a decade ago.
1 So, with tritium leaks into the ground 2
and groundwater, with the Palisades Park community 3
immediately next door drawing drinking water from the 4
groundwater, with local communities along the 5
shoreline drawing their drinking water from Lake 6
Michigan which is immediately downstream of 7
Palisades, again Big Rock Point, lessons learned, the 8
discharge canal at Big Rock Point used for 35 years 9
of radiological and toxic chemical discharges, Big 10 Rock Point was not even analyzed for how much 11 contamination is in the discharge canal even though 12 during decommissioning radioactive algae washed up 13 the discharge canal and set off radiation alarms in 14 the heart of the plant. So, there are tremendous 15 lessons to be learned right here in Michigan, many 16 negative ones. If folks would like a copy of this 17 report, I have a bunch of copies, and this is the tip 18 of the iceberg as I say.
19 MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you for your 20 comments.
21 MR. KAMPS: Thank you.
22 MR. WATSON: With that, we have all our 23 speakers. Is there anybody in the audience that has 24 not spoken that would like to speak? Please come on 25
50 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 down. Again, we want to stay on process with the 1
citizens advisory panel as our goal for comments on.
2 MS. PIERMAN: Good evening. My name is 3
Bette Pierman and I live in Benton Harbor, halfway 4
between the two nuclear power plants on the shore, 5
Palisades and DC Cook.
6 I want to thank you for holding this 7
meeting tonight, but I find it extremely troubling, 8
the attendance here. I dont know how you publicized 9
this locally. I cannot believe that we do not have 10 representatives from local cities and their 11 commissions and township commissions. They should 12 have been here tonight giving you input on this very 13 important subject.
14 So, I think you need to take a lesson for 15 how you invited people to this because this is 16 extremely troubling. We have one representative 17
- here, or a
person representing a
state 18 representative. Thats all weve had here. We have 19 had no mayors. We have had no township leaders. We 20 have had no city commission members. Shame on you.
21 So, the citizens advisory board is very, 22 very important, and the decommissioning of these 23 plants is very, very concerning for all of us who 24 live in the area. So, who should be in a citizens 25
51 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 advisory board? Hmm, well, people that arent here 1
tonight probably should be represented on a citizens 2
advisory board.
Members of the agricultural 3
community who have a vested interest in safe 4
decommissioning of this power plant and the impact 5
that its going to have on our agriculture in the 6
area is critical to serving on this advisory board.
7 As Mr.
Kamps
- said, we need 8
representatives from the local tribes on your 9
citizens advisory board. We need representatives 10 from the school district on a citizens advisory 11 board. We need representatives from the local 12 hospitals who also have a vested interest to make 13 sure that this plant is safely decommissioned.
14 What I see as a rule, I studied what some 15 of the other citizens advisory boards in other states 16 have done, theres been some excellent writeups on 17 what they created and what their roles were and how 18 they operated in their state. I can see that being 19 a critical role locally here, you know, we need people 20 who are not industry people. We need people who are 21 not plant people. Yes, their expertise is critical, 22 but we also need people that oversee, who have a 23 vested interest in their community who oversee what 24 they are doing to make sure that we continue to be 25
52 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 safe during the decommissioning of a plant.
1 So, yes, I very much think that we need 2
a citizens advisory board in this community, 3
especially when weve got plants, not just Palisades 4
but other plants that are going to be facing 5
decommissioning in the near future. We need a board 6
in this state. We need it to be not only serving as 7
an oversight board but also as an educational board.
8 They need to hold regular meetings, telling the 9
community whats going on as far as the 10 decommissioning progress is going on. We need it 11 from people that we can trust, people that have a 12 vested interest with our community, and not just from 13 the NRC and Entergy and those that want to continue 14 to tell us that everything is safe when we know its 15 not.
16 So, thank you very much. I will be 17 submitting comments and filling out your survey, too.
18 But you know, arent you disappointed at the 19 attendance at this meeting tonight? It just, it 20 breaks my heart.
21 MR. WATSON: Thank you for your comments.
22 I just want to point out one thing. The NRC is not 23 a member of the citizens advisory panel. We are an 24 independent safety regulator, so we do not take part 25
53 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 in that but do come to provide information that is 1
requested of us at those meetings.
2 We have another speaker. Can you give us 3
your name please?
4 MR. KRAFT: Thank you. My name is Dave 5
Kraft, Im director of Nuclear Energy Information 6
Service based in Chicago. Were a 38-year-old nuclear 7
watchdog organization in Illinois which also 8
advocates safe energy.
9 Actually, I wasnt planning on speaking 10 tonight. I wanted to observe the process, see what 11 you had in mind and see how the dialogue went on this.
12 But after hearing some of what Ive heard tonight and 13 heard your presentation, there are a few points I do 14 want to make. I will certainly be going in more 15 detail on September 26th when you guys come over to 16 the Zion meeting that we have over there.
17 But I do want to start with that because 18 our organization was in from the get go when Zion 19 began its decommissioning over about 10 years ago, 20 actually more than 10 years. You know, we saw the 21 formation of what they called ZCAP, the Zion Citizens 22 Action Panel, which was cited in your slide show. It 23 was an industry-created panel. I would point out 24 that we actually applied for membership but were 25
54 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 turned down, as were a number of other citizens from 1
the local Zion area who had expertise in economics 2
and other things.
3 I dont feel real badly about that, but 4
I do want to say that it was indicative of what youre 5
going to get if you rely on citizens advisory groups 6
that are run or financed or initiated by the vendors 7
themselves. So, I would support many of the comments 8
youve heard tonight that the citizens advisory 9
panels must be independent. Now, they could be funded 10 by the industry, but they need to be independent of 11 any kind of operation from the participants.
12 So, that was our history. Its kind of 13 interesting. Our 10-year experience at Zion was that 14 it was just a dog-and-pony show. It really didnt 15 achieve much other than PR for the industry itself, 16 which brings me to the second observation I have of 17 the whole process, and that is this is an advisory 18 entity.
19 Id like to go over a little bit of the 20 history of advice with the Nuclear Regulatory 21 Commission. A number of years ago, my organization 22 in Chicago and some of the people in this room 23 representing groups here had meetings with NRC 24 Chairwoman Allison Macfarlane. We gave lots of advice 25
55 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 on some of the financial problems and oversights and 1
absences in NRC regulations. The issue of an 2
independent citizens advisory panel was brought up I 3
know in the Chicago meeting, I dont know if it 4
occurred in Michigan, and nothing happened.
5 Many of the people in this room were 6
probably at the meeting when NRC Chairperson Greg 7
Jaczko was humiliated, both by NRC staff and power 8
plant operators telling everyone how safe the 9
Palisades plant was when in fact there was a 50-gallon 10 leak going on in the control room that night. Some 11 of you may remember that. Again, we had meetings 12 where we brought up the issue of oversight, citizens 13 groups, and nothing happened.
14 A number of people in this room I know 15 were at a two-hour meeting with NRC Commissioner 16 William Magwood and at the time I believe Chuck Casto 17 was the director of Region III if Im not mistaken, 18 about problems at Palisades. Not only were verbal 19 comments and dialogue entertained that night, a lot 20 of written materials were passed on to Commissioner 21 Magwood, and nothing happened.
22 In 2002, over a hundred organizations met 23 in Connecticut to come up with what we considered a 24 reasonable solution, an alternative to dealing with 25
56 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 high level radioactive waste. It was called hardened 1
onsite storage. Since then, the number of endorsing 2
organizations has now peaked over 200. Yet nothing 3
has happened in terms of hardened onsite storage.
4 So, I would like to start this process 5
out from the beginning by advising you folks that the 6
history of advice to the NRC is not very good. Advice 7
is something that you dont have to accept and 8
obviously you dont have to do anything about. That 9
seems to be the history that many of the people in 10 this room have experienced so far, which brings me to 11 the last point Im going to yield.
12 Another meeting that took place not too 13 long ago, it seems not too long ago or maybe it was, 14 on the safety problems at Palisades was a chaired or 15 at least co-chaired by Chuck Casto again of NRCs 16 Region III. He and other NRC representatives were 17 making a real point of sticking it to the owners and 18 operators at Palisades about the issue of safety 19 culture. You dont have a safety culture. Chuck 20 Casto went on to lecture us what a safety culture was 21 all about. It was going beyond what was simply 22 required by the regulations, and you guys at Palisades 23 didnt have it.
24 Well, our experience in 38 years of 25
57 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 dealing with the NRC is apparently neither do you, 1
because all we see are checkbox exercises. We see 2
entities that are created, that are not acted upon, 3
or at least given token acknowledgment and then 4
ignored. So, I guess what Im pointing out here is 5
you have a history to overcome if you really want to 6
make this process genuine, and it needs to start now.
7 Youll probably get more detail at the other meetings 8
youre going to have around the country on this, but 9
I just wanted to lay those points out now, especially 10 after so many of the people in this room have been 11 dealing with NRC decades and are still waiting for 12 their advice to be heard. Thank you.
13 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Do we have any 14 other speakers? Sir?
15 MR. MONTGOMERY: Yes, thank you, Bruce.
16 This is, my name is Bruce Montgomery of the Nuclear 17 Energy Institute. On behalf of our membership, Id 18 like to commend the thoughtful and deliberate 19 approach youre taking to complying with the 20 requirements of Section 108 of the Nuclear Energy 21 Innovation and Modernization Act.
22 As you pointed out during your 23 presentation, the industry has a lot of experience in 24 safely and efficiently decontaminating nuclear power 25
58 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 plant sites, and you have a lot of experience in 1
overseeing the whole process. Now, youve been given 2
the term Community Advisory Board to use as directed 3
by the Act. I understand and I would agree that other 4
types of community engagement works and works well.
5 This has also been proven across the country in 6
different decommissioning activities that are 7
executed well.
8 So, I would hope that, as youve pointed 9
out and others have, too, that one shoe doesnt fit 10 all feet, that what you might want to do in responding 11 to Congress in July of 2020 when you write your 12 report, as you reflect not just on the questions 13 youve asked in your questionnaire which come 14 straight from the Act, but you also give a fulsome 15 discussion of the other types of community engagement 16 approaches that have worked well at places like Fort 17 Calhoun, Crystal River and elsewhere, so that the 18 folks who read it back in Washington, DC get a full 19 report of the things that really do work. I think 20 what youve heard a lot of tonight is the community 21 needs to have significant input, the majority of the 22 input on how those boards are formed up and what their 23 charters are and who plays on those committees. Thank 24 you.
25
59 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Someone had a 1
hand up up here? Yes, maam, come on down.
2 MS. POTTER: So, I do have a question.
3 Barbara Potter, Iris Potter, Kalamazoo.
4 MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you.
5 MS. POTTER: Thank you. I have a 6
question. What do you see up there, the three of you 7
see, if any, your role in a CAB? I know you say you 8
dont have any, but what would you see as your role 9
in a CAB? Or what have you already done in CABs?
10 MR. WATSON: Okay, I can only explain 11 what weve done in the past.
12 MS. POTTER: Yes, right.
13 MR. WATSON: Okay, we are not members of 14 CABs.
15 MS. POTTER: Right.
16 MR. WATSON: Were an independent safety 17 regulator. We are not a member, as I said, of the 18 CAB. We have been invited to speak at a number of 19 CABs. The most recent one was at the Pilgrim nuclear 20 decommissioning advisory panel for the Pilgrim plant 21 in Plymouth, Massachusetts. We went and spoke on the 22 license transfer process and other decommissioning 23 issues, okay, but we had a specific invitation from 24 the Pilgrim NDCAP to do that.
25
60 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 We have spoken at the Vermont Yankee 1
nuclear decommissioning advisory panel on a number of 2
topics, most importantly with the license transfer 3
that was granted there. We spoke to them in advance 4
of the license transfer process, and also some of the 5
other issues they had with, some of the financial 6
issues that the NRC does.
7 MS. POTTER: What kind of issues? Im 8
sorry, I didnt hear that.
9 MR. WATSON: Decommissioning funding 10 issues.
11 MS. POTTER: That is a pretty big issue, 12 yes.
13 MR. WATSON: Okay, so weve spoken to 14 them. Weve also spoken at the, I know Ive spoken 15 twice at the, were getting a little feedback here, 16 San Onofre, whats called the citizens engagement 17 panel. They all have different names, they all 18 generally have the same principal functions. Ive 19 spoken twice about, at their facility, at their 20 community meeting, one on environmental reviews that 21 the NRC does, and also on our inspection program for 22 decommissioning.
23 Im trying to think. Weve spoken at a 24 couple of others, but those are probably the main 25
61 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 ones. So, we do participate when were invited to be 1
guests to speak at those, when there is a specific 2
request. I know other parts of the organization have 3
been there to speak about the safety of the spent 4
fuel. Our spent fuel folks had been there to do that.
5 Ive had some of the regional inspectors and managers 6
come and speak about the inspection process also.
7 So, weve done our part to provide 8
information. I think when asked, weve generally 9
been able to respond. But we do not direct the 10 activities of the board, we just acknowledge that 11 they exist and are available to hear all sides of 12 issues.
13 MS. POTTER: Right, okay. Well, thank 14 you. I was just curious what, I knew it was an 15 advisory or educational or, you know, explaining your 16 role, I figured that. Thank you.
17 I did want to add in, and Ms. Boudart 18 broached this subject, that we do have the expertise 19 based on the experience of long-time, lets say 20 Palisades watchdog or Palisades groups who are 21 watching and have been following what has happened at 22 Palisades. We have all the information about some of 23 the things that have happened there, safety issues.
24 So, I think its critical that these CABs involved 25
62 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and it be requested that long-time groups such as 1
Michigan Safe Energy Future, Don=t Waste Michigan, 2
Palisades Shutdown Campaign Coalition, any of them, 3
that they be a part of these CABs, because as 4
citizens, we are citizens, were volunteers, were 5
not paid, weve been following this and working on 6
this and looking out for the safety of folks for a 7
very long time. Thank you.
8 MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you. Youre 9
coming down? Okay, please.
10 MR. BROWN: My name is Bruce Brown. I 11 hadnt planned on saying anything this evening. But 12 as I was looking over the little feedback chart or 13 feedback form to fill out in the questionnaire and 14 going through the meeting, things occurred to me.
15 Number one, when I saw the part where 16 some of these citizens panels are sponsored by the 17 licensee, flags went up in my mind. There arent 18 many people in Southwest Michigan who would not be 19 suspicious of Entergy or Palisades or Holtec as the 20 licensee sponsoring the panel that oversees the 21 decommissioning that the licensee is doing.
22 Number two, from what I understand, the 23 purpose of meetings like these are for us to help you 24 understand how these citizen panels should be set up.
25
63 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 One thing, and I applaud Bettes comment about how 1
many people are here, I was just looking around, it 2
looks like about 15 people here are NRC people, media 3
people, Palisades and Entergy people, and maybe 25 or 4
30 of the rest of the people are actually people 5
interested in how to go about setting up these panels.
6 Bettes point that there has to be more than a 7
transient, peremptory call notifying people that 8
theres a meeting. Theres about zero chance that 9
your average citizen is going to go to the NRC website 10 and discover that theres a meeting. There has to be 11 a much stronger, much stronger publicity about these 12 meetings.
13 Now, from what I understand, this is the 14 first one, right? Okay, please learn from this 15 audience, that you have failed to attract an audience.
16 I know there has to be hundreds and hundreds of people 17 in Southwest Michigan that are concerned about whats 18 going to happen when Palisades shuts down. If this 19 is all, and I know several of these people arent 20 even from Southwest Michigan. There are three people 21 here that I know of from Illinois, Kevin Kamps came 22 here from Washington, DC, and those are people who 23 intentionally seek out the kind of information that 24 you failed to give to the rest of Southwest Michigan.
25
64 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 As you go along in this program, please do a better 1
job of getting people here to help you understand how 2
to set up these panels, okay?
3 Another suggestion on how to do that, 4
never in this entire evening have I seen a specific 5
definition of the word decommissioning. We have to 6
know what it is were talking about. Now, there was, 7
you know, some of these slides that we went through 8
talked about safety features will be in effect until 9
all of the waste leaves the site. Does that mean 10 decommissioning lasts until all the waste leaves the 11 site? How can that be? We dont even have a plan to 12 send the waste anywhere.
13 Its issues like that that just bothered 14 me as we went through this evening. You know, like 15 I said, I didnt know I was going to say anything.
16 But here I am and thats what I said. Thank you very 17 much.
18 MR. WATSON: No, thank you very much.
19 Somebody, oh, okay, sorry, Im looking around the 20 corner here.
21 MR. SMITH: Good evening, hello. Good 22 evening, my name is Scott Smith and I am actually the 23 mayor of the city of South Haven. So, Id like to 24 say its nice to be on this side of the microphone 25
65 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and not where you are tonight.
1 South Haven, as you know, were neighbors 2
to the Palisades plant, and its home to many of its 3
workers, so weve had a very good relationship for 4
years. I want to thank you for coming. I know this 5
is the first of many meetings, and I applaud you for 6
starting the process. As youve heard, more 7
communication but, you know, that will clearly 8
improve. So, I just want to applaud you for being 9
here and starting to listen to the residents, the 10 local communities. We appreciate your presence 11 tonight.
12 Palisades is a major employer, energy 13 producer, and you know, importantly for us, theyre 14 a very visible and invested member of the South Haven 15 community, and theyve been that way for years. Their 16 engagement with the city and public has been extremely 17 important, and even more so over past years with the 18 announcement of the closure. Theyve been more 19 present in our community with that transitional 20 process.
21 Its important for us, as we talk about 22 the eventual creation of the Palisades advisory 23 panel, that we want to ensure that transparency and 24 public dialogue continues. As youve heard tonight, 25
66 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 we clearly want to be involved. I hope we as a city 1
are involved, all the local communities are involved.
2 You know, based on my experience in local government 3
and the private sector, if you want a committee or a 4
board to be effective, it needs to be credible and 5
have buy in from everybody around. So, in that case, 6
that means local control. So, include us. Please 7
include us.
8 What works for communities on the East 9
Coast, the West Coast, may not necessarily work here 10 on the North Coast, right? So, hopefully youll pay 11 attention to what were, you know, what youre hearing 12 from the folks here and in this local area. Just, 13 again, as you take your recommendations back to 14 Congress, I just want to urge you to emphasize the 15 importance of deferring, you know, as much of that 16 decision making as possible to the local communities, 17 the citizens, you know, obviously the municipalities, 18 elected officials, that can I think again get back to 19 their local citizens.
20 Finally, I know there are some Entergy 21 folks here, but theyve been a great partner for many 22 years for the local communities and we appreciate 23 their presence and all that theyve done to now. So, 24 thank you again for listening to us tonight. I 25
67 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 appreciate it.
1 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Yes, maam.
2 MS. HARRINGTON: Good evening. I just 3
want to thank you for coming out, starting to have a 4
conversation with us.
5 MR. WATSON: Can you give us your name 6
please?
7 MS. HARRINGTON: Oh, Im sorry. Ella 8
Harrington, and I live in Covert Township. So, Im 9
about five miles from the nuclear plant. I think 10 like everyone is saying, I just want to piggyback on 11 it that you need to get the involvement of, I dont 12 know, people in the community, the residents, and 13 like you were saying, the local municipalities.
14 I think you would get a better turnout if 15 its closer to, I dont know, the Covert area. I 16 dont know if you would have a meeting at the school 17 and then Entergy would be involved in different things 18 like that. But I am pretty sure people in the 19 community are concerned. I know being in the rural 20 area they may have trouble getting out to Benton 21 Harbor and different places, although I appreciate 22 the southwestern part of the state and people from 23 Illinois and everywhere coming out, I think they need 24 to be involved as well.
25
68 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 So, I want to thank you and just remind 1
you that what everyone is saying is to get everybody 2
involved, more so than just the DC and the upper 3
people in management and different things like that.
4 I think its on a different level to actually hear 5
people that are staying there. The people are 6
concerned about where the disposal was going to be 7
and how long its going to take and how long is it 8
affecting them and is it making them have cancer. I 9
think people have a lot of different cancers. I think 10 as youre doing meetings, maybe schedule some closer.
11 MR. WATSON: Okay.
12 MS. HARRINGTON: Thanks.
13 MR. WATSON: Yes, thank you very much.
14 Yes, maam?
15 MS. FISH: Hi, my name is Melissa Fish.
16 Im a legislative aide for State Representative John 17 Hoadley from the Kalamazoo area. I had not intended 18 to say anything tonight, you know, Id just kind of 19 listen. But I just want to share that we are very 20 supportive of an advisory board that includes folks 21 from the state and local areas, from the local 22 municipalities, from schools, from, you know, local 23 governments, all different kinds of folks who are 24 going to be impacted by the decommissioning of 25
69 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Palisades. So, I just wanted to share that we are 1
very supportive of that and looking forward to be 2
engaged in more conversations about that. So, thank 3
you.
4 MR. WATSON: Thank you. You want to come 5
back down? Okay. Oh, Im sorry, didnt see you.
6 Well get to you next. Okay.
7 MS. BOUDART: Im Jan Boudart from 8
Nuclear Energy Information Service. Its kind of 9
discouraging to be a volunteer, and I feel that a 10 nuclear decommissioning citizens activist panel 11 should have funding. I think that if the state 12 legislature or the state executive decides to 13 establish such an entity, that there should be a way 14 of funding it.
15 Theres a tremendous amount of money 16 running around in the nuclear project, and the people 17 who are concerned and who want to be on these kinds 18 of entities should be rewarded. Maybe it would be 19 payment to them directly, to be sure that they are 20 paid for their transportation and for their time, or 21 that a donation be given to something they care a lot 22 about. But asking people to come to meetings where 23 everybody is paid but them is not really fair. There 24 should be funding for the individuals who end up on 25
70 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 these panels. Thank you very much.
1 MR. WATSON: Thank you. Sir? Come on 2
down.
3 MR. ROSE: My name is Geoffrey Rose, Im 4
a resident of Covert, Michigan.
5 MR. WATSON: Is it John Rose?
6 MR. ROSE: Geoffrey.
7 MR. WATSON: Geoffrey, okay, yes.
8 MR. ROSE: Rose from Covert, Michigan.
9 Im just now getting involved in the activities with 10 the decommissioning and everything thats happening 11 with the Palisades Nuclear Plant. After listening to 12 all these people state their concerns, I realize you 13 guys got a tough job to do and its going to take, 14 you know, a lot of work to really accommodate most of 15 these requests. I dont know how many people can be 16 on a board, but it seems like theres a lot of people 17 that needs to be on the board.
18 But when I was reading your mission 19 statement, I cant recite it word for word but there 20 was a couple of words that kind of made me feel uneasy 21 when it said that you will, in your mission statement, 22 it says you will reasonably protect the environment 23 and the health and everything. I want to know if you 24 can define what you mean when you say reasonably 25
71 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 protect because there are different definitions of 1
the word.
2 MR. WATSON: I think we mentioned that 3
our mission is to provide safety for not only the 4
workers but for the public and protect the 5
environment. Thats what our mission is. The only 6
word weve used reasonable with that I can recall is 7
with the decommissioning funding and the regulations 8
define reasonable. Theres a reasonable assurance 9
that theres adequate decommissioning.
10 MR. ROSE: Right, okay, okay.
11 MR. WATSON: So, Im sorry if we threw in 12 a few words maybe or not, but I want to make it clear 13 we are the safety regulator and our mission is safety.
14 Theres really no compromise on that.
15 MR. ROSE: Okay, because that should be 16 the main concern with everyone in this room and 17 probably a lot of people who are not in this room.
18 So, thank you. I know you guys got a tough job to 19 do.
20 MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you, sir. Im 21 having trouble looking into the crowd because of the 22 lights, so thats why Ive kind of missed people from 23 time to time. Is there anybody else that would like 24 to talk? Provide some comments? Nobody?
25
72 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I think thats it. With that, I thought 1
we could close the meeting. I have a couple of 2
summary comments from this evening that Id like to 3
tell you what I heard, and I think my staff will also 4
agree with me that we did hear.
5 For Palisades, I heard a lot of comments 6
that there should be a citizens advisory panel or 7
CAB, citizens advisory board. It should be 8
independent, possibly state or locally sponsored, but 9
it needs to be locally based. The panel membership 10 should include local
- citizens, local elected 11 officials, including safety representatives, and 12 possibly even people extending to the agriculture and 13 tribal nations, and also include people who volunteer 14 to be on the CAB.
15 I want to remind everybody that the NRC 16 is not a member of the citizens advisory panel, but 17 we can be guests to provide information. We are an 18 independent safety regulator. On the other hand, I 19 also heard that the NRC could do a better job 20 advertising the meetings, and so we will look into 21 that.
22 So, thats the general issues I heard.
23 Were looking forward to seeing the transcript and 24 analyzing what was actually said and taking a second 25
73 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 look at those. Do you have anything to add, Kim?
1 Oh, yes, we have a little card here so 2
that people can look up our e-mail address, and also 3
theres other information on the decommissioning 4
program, the website, and also the website for this 5
particular NEIMA Section 108 which is the citizens 6
advisory, and also where the questionnaire is again.
7 So, we have these cards that can be, that are 8
available up front. We also have the questionnaire 9
out there. Also, we have meeting feedback forms that 10 you can fill out and just slip in the mail and theyll 11 come to our headquarters for comments on the actual 12 meeting.
13 Any closing remarks? Yes, we will be 14 accepting comments and the questionnaire through mid-15 November. So, were looking forward to, after youve 16 had this opportunity to be at this meeting and hear 17 what weve had to say about the history of the CABs 18 and the experience at sites, if you have any 19 additional thoughts, youre welcome to provide those 20 to us.
21 So, with that, I will call the meeting 22 adjourned. Thank you all for coming.
23 (Whereupon, at 7:47 p.m., the above-24 mentioned public hearing was concluded.)
25
74 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16