ML13052A379
| ML13052A379 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Peach Bottom  |
| Issue date: | 02/13/2013 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NRC-4012 | |
| Download: ML13052A379 (38) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 10 CFR 2.206 Petition Review Board RE Peach Bottom Units 2 and 3
Title:
Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
(teleconference)
Date:
Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1-1 Work Order No.:
NRC-4012 Pages 1-36 RIORGIAL',
NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 7-(202) 234-4433
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10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB)
CONFERENCE CALL RE PEACH BOTTOM UNITS 2 AND 3 WEDNESDAY FEBRUARY 13, 2013 The conference call was
- Evans, Chairperson of the Petition presiding.
- held, Michele Review
- Board, PETITIONER: MICHAEL MULLIGAN PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS MICHELE EVANS, Director Division of Operating Reactor Licensing JAMES KIM, Petition Manager for 2.206 petition MERRILEE BANIC, PRB Coordinator NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com
2 TECHNICAL STAFF:
SAM HANSEL, Senior Resident Inspector ADAM ZIEDONIS, Resident Inspector for the Peach Bottom Station JOHN BILLERBECK, Component Performance and Testing Branch MOHAMMAD RAZZAQUE, Reactor Systems Branch ANDREW ROSEBROOK, Region I Division of Reactor Projects NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2:02:09 p.m.
3 MR.
KIM: Good afternoon.
I would like to 4
thank everybody for attending this meeting. My name is 5
James Kim, and I am a Project Manager in NRR.
6 We are here today to allow the Petitioner, 7
Mr.
Michael Mulligan, to address the Petition Review 8
Board regarding 2.206 Petition dated October 15, 2012.
9 I'm the Petitioner Manager for the 10 petition. The Petition Review Board is Michele Evans.
11 As part of the Petition Review Board's review of this 12
- petition, Mr.
Michael Mulligan has requested this 13 opportunity to address the PRB.
14 This meeting is scheduled from 2:00 to 15 3:00 p.m.
The meeting is being recorded by the NRC 16 Operations Center and will be transcribed by a court 17 reporter. The transcript will become a supplement to 18 the petition.
The transcript will also be made 19 publicly available.
20 I would like to open this meeting with 21 introductions. As we go around the room please be sure 22 to clearly state your name, your position, and the 23 office that you work for within the NRC for the 24 record.
I'll start off.
25 This is James Kim.
I am a Project Manager NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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in Division of Operating Reactor Licensing in NRR.
2 MS.
BANIC:
Lee
- Banic, 2.206 Petition 3
Coordinator, NRR.
4 CHAIR EVANS: Yes.
I'm Michele Evans.
I'm 5
the Director of the Division of Operating Reactor 6
Licensing in
this petition.
8 MR.
KIM: At this time are there any NRC 9
participants from headquarters on the phone?
10 MR.
BILLERBECK:
- Yes, Jim. This is John 11 Billerbeck from NRR.
12 MR.
RAZZAQUE: This is Mohammad Razzaque 13 from Reactor Systems Branch.
14 MR.
KIM: Are there any NRC participants 15 from the regional office on the phone?
16 MR.
HANSEL: Yes, this is Sam Hansel, the 17 Senior Resident Inspector at Peach Bottom.
18 MR.
ZIEDONIS: Adam Ziedonis, the Resident 19 Inspector at Peach Bottom.
20 MR.
ROSEBROOK: And Andy Rosebrook, Region 21 I.
22 MR.
KIM: Are there any representatives for 23 the Licensee on the phone? Hearing none, Mr. Mulligan, 24 would you please introduce yourself for the record.
25 MR.
MULLIGAN: I'm Mike Mulligan and I'm a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Safety Advocate or a whistle blower.
I have worked in 2
the industry on nuclear submarines.
3 MR.
KIM: Thank you. It is not required for 4
the members of the public to introduce themselves for 5
this call.
- However, if there are any members of the 6
public on the phone that wish to do at this time, 7
please state your name for the record.
8 I would like to emphasize that we each 9
need to speak clearly and loudly to make sure that the 10 court reporter can accurately transcribe this meeting.
11 If you do have something that you'd like to say, 12 please first state your name for the record. For those 13 dialing into the meeting, please remember to mute your 14 phones to minimize any background noise or 15 distractions.
If you do not have a mute button, this 16 can be done by pressing the keys *6.
To unmute, press 17 the *6 keys again. Thank you.
18 At this time, I turn it over to the PRB 19 Chairman, Michele Evans.
20 CHAIR EVANS: Okay. Good afternoon. Welcome 21 to this meeting regarding the 2.206 Petition submitted 22 by Mr.
Mulligan.
I'd like to first share some 23 background on our process.
24 Section 2.206 of Title 10 in the Code of 25 Federal Regulations describes the petition process, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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the primary mechanism for the public to request 2
enforcement action by the NRC in a public process.
3 The process permits anyone to petition NRC to take 4
enforcement-type action related to NRC licensees or 5
licensed activities.
6 Depending on the results of its 7
evaluation, the NRC could modify, suspend, or revoke 8
an NRC-issued license or take any other appropriate 9
enforcement action to resolve a problem.
The NRC 10 Staff's Guidance for the disposition of 2.206 petition 11 requests is in Management Directive 8.11 which is 12 publicly available.
13 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 14 the Petitioner an opportunity to provide any 15 additional explanation or support for the petition 16 after the Petition Review Board's initial 17 consideration and recommendations. This meeting is not 18 a hearing, nor is it an opportunity for the Petitioner 19 to question or examine the PRB on the merits or the 20 issues presented in the Petition Request. No decisions 21 regarding the merits of this petition will be made at 22 this meeting.
23 Following the meeting, the Petition Review 24 Board will conduct its internal deliberations.
The 25 outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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with the Petitioner.
2 The Petition Review Board typically 3
consists of a Chairman, usually a Manager at the 4
Senior Executive Service Level at the NRC, has a
5 Petition Manager, and a PRB Coordinator, and other 6
members of the Board are determined by the NRC Staff 7
based on the content of the information in the 8
petition request.
9 Earlier we all introduced ourselves, and 10 that basically covers the composition of the Petition 11 Review Board. At this point, is there anyone who would 12 like me to repeat the names of the individuals 13 participating on this Board?
14 (No response.)
15 CHAIR EVANS: All right. As described in 16 our
- process, the NRC Staff may ask clarifying 17 questions in order to better understand the 18 Petitioner's presentation and to reach a reasoned 19 decision whether to accept or reject the Petitioner's 20 request for review under the 2.206 process.
21 I'd like to summarize the scope of the 22 petition under consideration and the NRC activities to 23 date. First for the petition, on October 1 5 th, 2012 24 Mr.
Mulligan submitted to the NRC a petition under 25 2.206 regarding the Peach Bottom Unit 2 and 3 reactors NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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which requested a number of actions. These included 2
requesting an immediate shutdown of Peach Bottom 2 and 3
3 for safety reasons based on the common mode failure 4
of the SRV actuators not being qualified for the 5
accident containment maximum temperature and radiation 6
conditions.
It also included a request for Vermont 7
Yankee to be fined $10 million for not declaring a 10 8
CFR 50.73 (a) (2) (v) (D) on their SRV actuators, and that 9
they did not warn the other plants of these problems.
10 There are an additional seven items which 11 I at this point don't intend to review.
If anyone 12 would like me to read off those seven items, I could 13 do that now.
14 Okay.
So, now for the NRC activities to 15 date. On November 1 of 2012, the PRB met internally to 16 discuss the request for immediate action of emergency 17 shutdown of Peach Bottom Units 2 and 3.
The PRB denied 18 the request for immediate action because there was no 19 immediate safety concern to the plants or to the 20 health and safety of the public.
On November 6th you 21 were informed of the PRB's decisions on the immediate 22 action.
23 On December 3 rd, 2012 Mr.
Mulligan 24 addressed the PRB via teleconference to provide 25 supplemental information for the Board's consideration NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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prior to the PRB's internal meeting to make an initial 2
recommendation.
3 On January l
0 th of
- 2013, the PRB met 4
internally to discuss the petition and to make an 5
initial recommendation.
The PRB determined that some 6
of the petition requests do not meet the criteria for 7
review because the petition failed to provide 8
sufficient facts to warrant further inquiry.
9 The remaining requests within the petition 10 meet the criteria for rejection because they were not 11 enforcement-related actions.
Therefore, the PRB's 12 initial recommendation was to not accept your 13 petition.
14 On January 3 0 th you were informed of the 15 PRB's initial recommendation and you requested another 16 opportunity to address the PRB which is the purpose of 17 today's call.
18 As a reminder for the phone participants, 19 please identify yourself if you make any remarks as 20 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 21 transcript that will be made publicly available. Thank 22 you.
23 Mr. Mulligan, I'll turn it over to you to 24 allow you to provide any information you believe the 25 PRB should consider as part of this petition.
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MULLIGAN: Hi, I'm Mike Mulligan, and as far as I didn't provide any sufficient facts, that's because the system is rotten. It doesn't allow me to gain any facts under pain of perjury. In other words, nobody's required to tell me the truth and face any legal consequences if they don't tell the truth.
So, that's where we sit today.
You know, I'm here really just kind of to change hearts type of thing. You know, I
know that there's a lot of rules and stuff like that that the NRC has that okays incomplete truth telling.
And there's a lot of reason, altruistic reasons so called and stuff like that as far as you think you're doing a bigger good so you're hiding the truth. But that's the way the game is played.
Anyway, anybody listen to the State of the Union speech last night? The White House basically frames it like it's time to apply the same rules from the top to the bottom. President Obama laid out a blueprint for an economy built on American manufacturing, American
- energy, skills for the American worker, and a renewal of American values, and American built to last.
We can either settle for a country with a shrinking number of people who do well while a growing number of Americans barely get by, or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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we can restore an economy where everybody gets a fair 2
- shot, everybody does his fair
- share, and everybody 3
plays by the same rules.
4 So, one of the components he outlined was 5
a fair shot, a fair share, and a fair set of rules.
6 Millions of American -- billions of Americans who work 7
hard and play by the rules every day deserve a
8 government, financial systems that do the same.
So, 9
you know, as far as being complete and honest and 10 stuff like that, you know, it's a privilege that I'm -
11
- for you people that I'm here and asking questions.
12 And that's the way you should look at me.
I'm a very 13 rare individual that comes here and asks some 14 difficult questions and stuff like that. And I'm an 15 American citizen. I live in the best country on the 16 planet, and that should afford me some special rules.
17 And you people should answer me honestly because 18 really, you're answering the public out there and 19 stuff.
20 I needn't remind you that LERs and the 21 special reports not necessarily about following the 22 rules. A lot of times it's being honest and ethical 23 and disclose everything. That's the way our system is 24 supposed to run, our free market is supposed to run.
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information, and as far as our financial system is 2
concerned and our rate payers, and the stockholders, 3
they ought to get a fair shot of understanding what's 4
going on with these companies.
And if these 5
politicians make all these rules that limit what the 6
NRC can do, and say, and stuff like that then you're 7
screwing the rate payer and the financial people, and 8
the stockholders.
9 Ultimately, these things end in a crash 10 when people aren't honest and truthful, and I don't 11 care if they're following the rules.
The ultimate 12 income is to do good for us all, and not just follow 13 the rules.
They need to have a higher calling than 14 following the rules.
15 I was reading the --
oh, geez, the LER, 16 the first LER, the only LER, LER 2011-003, no updates 17 on this guy.
And, you know, Vermont Yankee is very 18 similar to this.
- And, basically, it speaks of 19 diaphragm thread seal leakage only occurred when the 20 71B SRV was actuated and, therefore, the leakage would 21 not have been detectible during normal plant 22 operations. Right?
23 These valves are extraordinarily dangerous 24 because they're behind a barrier, a cement barrier 25 many feet thick, and employees aren't allowed to go in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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there, and they're primitively instrumented up and all 2
that sort of stuff. And that's what makes these valves, 3
very dangerous. A lot of these valves, safety relief 4
valves and PROV valves have been implicated in a lot 5
of very serious accidents in the industry.
6 I talked about 300 percent increase from 7
the beginning of the decade to just recently with 8
increasing problems with BWR SRVs.
When inspected by 9
maintenance person, the threaded seal had indication 10 of being dry and brittle.
11 The NRC came out with an inspection report 12 and basically said it was thermal degradation. Well, 13 here they're talking about, they admit it's thermal 14 degradation.
Vermont Yankee admitted that it was 15 thermal degradation, and then two years later on they 16 said well, it wasn't thermal --
they went through a 17 bunch of organizations and vendors, investigators, 18 service investigators and stuff like that, and they 19 all said it was thermal degradation in the beginning.
20 And it was no such thing, it was the wrong material 21 that was placed in there in these valves. It was Buna-22 N material and it was the wrong material, and it was 23 only qualified --
environmentally qualified for 230 24 degrees or such. And it should have been qualified for 25 400 degrees.
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And it's our honor to not operate these 2
plants for the day to day operations, nuclear 3
professionalism is we sacrifice profits as far as day 4
to day operations to make sure these plants are fully 5
capable of providing their design requirements, their 6
designed accidents, their design temperatures in the 7
containment.
8 You
- know, I
talked about a
Vendor 9
Technical Evaluation Report was issued in March 2002 10 and provides recommendations to upgrade the fill 11
- material, a design that is more resistant.
Due to 12 heat-related failures we know that back in 2003 when 13 both plants had a terrible accident, lightning struck 14 your lines and it tripped both plants, and it was a 15 comic book situation with the way the plants operated, 16 and multiple SRVs on both plants had serious issues.
17 One didn't open, one stuck open and stuff, and there 18 was a realization that the asbestos seals they're 19 talking about was a harm to human people manufacturing 20 this stuff and they had to go to something else. And 21 then sometime after this, that's when they went to 22 this Buna.
I don't know, maybe they went to silicone 23 and then they went to Buna, but they ended up with 24 this Buna business and stuff like that.
25 You know, nobody wants to talk about how NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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that got into the system because we're not necessarily 2
talking about how a plant responds, it's how the 3
bureaucracy responds, you know.
If they can't prevent 4
this stuff from going in there, they don't got enough 5
policies and principles in order to prevent this stuff 6
from getting into these plants like that then, you 7
- know, an issue on a single plant is nothing.
If the 8
system is like that, then this stuff could be all over 9
place, and it could be in a bunch of plants. And they 10 could repeat this kind of behavior over and over 11 again.
12 So, you know, fix the symptom, you just 13 replace this Buna stuff with this new 400 degree 14
- material, but you don't fix the system.
It's a
15 shortcut and stuff. You know, when you make a mistake 16 like this, you've got to suffer and wring your hands, 17 and wonder why you didn't prevent it.
And then you fix 18 the alternization and the procedures behind it.
19 So, the SRVs are manufactured by Target 20 Rock and are three-stage relief valves. Just as a by 21 the way, Pilgrim got new three-stage relief valves and 22 replacement of their two-stage relief valves a year 23 ago or whatever happened. Three of their relief valves 24 well, two of their relief valves leaked, caused a 25 shutdown, and they were working on the third one until NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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the blizzard took it over. That's very much like Peach 2
Bottom here, and Vermont Yankee where components 3
within the valve and the valve actuator degrades 4
because of normal temperatures and questions the 5
reliability to these valves and stuff like that.
6 You know, it's a raised symptom that they 7
don't prevent these things from happening instead of 8
looking back and coming up with this magic computer 9
risk type of thing, and nothing every matters type of 10 attitude. It's terrible when you get down to it.
11 That's the LER, now the Inspection Report 12 we're going to go to. You know, I could talk about 13 Vermont Yankee.
They first thought it was a
14 temperature thermal degradation, not and then 15 they kind of admit that it is they put the wrong 16 material in there and stuff like that. That's insane.
17 You know, we're supposed to be a nation of 18 values and integrity.
We have a sense of right and 19 wrong and if something questions our conscience we're 20 supposed to -- there's a lot of processes and there's 21 a
lot of different ways internally, and even 22 externally with the internet, you notify people and 23 stuff like that. And you never let it sit until the 24 problem is resolved, and that's the American way.
25 And like I said, Vermont Yankee, they --
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this thermal business was completely bogus and 2
everybody knew it.
They should have and Peach 3
Bottom is the same way.
They should have known it 4
within a week, within days before they started up that 5
it was not a --
it wasn't a thermal degradation, it 6
was the wrong material.
You know, and then you say 7
thermal degradation. Well, you know, if it's thermal 8
degradation, well, do we have thermal changes? And 9
then you find out that really nothing much has changed 10 inside the containment over years as far as the 11 temperature. And then you start saying well, how could 12 they say it's a thermal degradation? How could they 13 say it? There was no elevated temperature more than 14 normal.
How come it fails and stuff like that?
15 You know, so they --
you know what you 16 said in the inspection report and stuff. And, you 17 know, there's no sense of anybody questioning the LER 18 and stuff, NRC questioning and criticizing the LER.
19 Publicly where are your shortcomings? Well, you know, 20 you get an infinite amount of time to solve these 21 problems. You place the valve and then start back up 22 without knowing what's wrong with it.
Do you get an 23 infinite amount of time to delay the outcome?
24 You know, with the LER really you haven't 25 disclosed to me much about what went wrong with that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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fill material, why it goes wrong, how did it get by 2
your receipt inspections and all that sort of stuff.
3 You have a quality vendor that tells the truth type of 4
thing. You know, there's none of that in this thing.
5 It's like I'm from another country, you know. You make 6
believe that, you know, I don't matter and telling me 7
the truth don't matter. All that matters is following 8
the rules, that really puts the little guy at a 9
disadvantage and gives enormous power to an agency 10 like the NRC and Exelon to take shortcuts.
11 When these shortcuts happen and they don't 12 do it the right way, and they're not truthful, the 13 outcome is the little guy always suffers.
You know, 14 the guy at the bottom of the -- the poorest, weakest 15 one always suffers.
16 I'm going to tell you the most immoral 17 thing I've ever seen in this world is priorities and 18
- budgets, and budget reductions.
It drives 19 organizations crazy most of the times. Nobody realizes 20 oh, we're having a budget reduction. We've got to be 21 100 times more honest now than we have in the past 22 because there's many levels of the organizations, and 23 miscommunication, stuff like that. And we've got to be 24 more honest and more transparent, and we've got to be 25 more on attention and stuff because the outcome of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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this is people become blinded.
2 And I've seen this in organizations, and 3
they start telling half-truths and they say well, this 4
pump is noisy, but it's not broken. And there's lies 5
and there's the good guys on one side, and the bad 6
guys on the other side. And the organization goes 7
crazy and stuff.
8 Budget reductions, priorities and stuff 9
like
- that, they're so
- complex, and these huge 10 organizations, both the agency and Exelon, these huge 11 agencies and, you know, you don't know from the little 12 guy that has a conscience to the guy up in the top.
13 Very seldom does that message get to the top, and it's 14 a big problem with these big organizations.
15 So, you know, we ought to think about the 16 decommissioning problems with Exelon right now.
You 17
- know, it's an integrity issue. It's an honest --
can 18 you trust Exelon to tell the truth? If they can't be 19 truthful about talking about decommissioning funding 20 and being honest, being off on their estimates of a 21 billion dollars or more and stuff like that, you know.
22 It's a matter of honor and integrity and stuff, you 23 know. Would we have --
do they have the money to shut 24 down all these plants and decommission them? Well, you 25
- know, that's not that much of a problem.
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What is the problem is people being honest 2
and open, and going to the ends of the earth.
If a
3 government official asks a question, then you go to 4
the ends of the earth to be as complete and honest as 5
you can. You don't play games with rules. You don't 6
play word games, and interpret words one way, one 7
group of people interprets a word one way, and another 8
person interprets it another way. And you don't tell 9
each other your interpretations, and you allow people 10 to go for months, years on.
It's wrong.
11 And the NRC here, I mean, it boggles the 12 mind that this thing began 2001 and it took them one, 13 two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight years before 14 you know, how many lies were involved in that? How 15 many officials lied in this --
in all these years and 16 stuff like that? How come the agency can't see that 17 somebody was lying in 2001? I'll give them to 2002, 18 and then bang their bells and make sure that the --
an 19 organization like Exelon knows that telling the truth 20 is important, you know. And we won't stand for people 21 playing word games with us.
22 How come it takes all these years in order 23 to make the Exelon see the light? Well, they still 24 haven't seen the light because they're denying 25 everything.
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And the 01 investigation identified 2
apparent violations of NRC requirements, being 3
considered for escalated enforcement actions. Now, the 4
evidence obtained during the investigation indicated 5
that a senior Exelon executive and Exelon manager 6
exercised a
high level of involvement and 7
responsibility in preparing DFS reports.
You know, 8
let's say everybody has --
on pain of perjury has to 9
be honest in the industry. We're down to that point.
10 Energy is so important for our society, you know. As 11 it sits now there's so much power with --
in the grid 12
- system, in the electric system, and these utilities 13 that they can play word games, and they can tell half-14 truths and stuff. That nonsense has to stop. And then 15 the people outside that are advocating for their 16 energy
- sources, and people you
- know, the 17 environmentalists and safety advocates.
18 I think we all have to have a level of 19 required truthfulness and honesty within energy.
I 20 think that should be on of our nation's highest things 21 to straighten out our energy sector and make sure 22 everybody tells the truth, and everybody, you know, 23 all the different types of energy.
24 We're going insane as far as everybody 25 lying and cheating, and telling half-truths on the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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energy sector, and nobody --
the public doesn't really 2
know what's going on, and it's crazy. I think that as 3
a big policy statement anybody does business with 4
energy and electricity, or any of our energy sources 5
should be required to tell the truth. And if you don't 6
tell the truth you go to jail.
7 Based on the evidence developed, the OIG 8
investigator did substantiate that a senior executive 9
and Exelon manager appeared to have deliberately 10 provided incomplete and inaccurate information to the 11 NRC.
- And, let's see again,
- one, two,
- three, four 12 years. How come at times it takes four years for the 13 NRC --
how come the first time the guy starts being a 14 weasel, how come the first time the agency can't, you 15 know, bring this guy to court, or one of the other 16 lesser things, but eventually --
if it's the second 17 time, then he goes to court, and then he goes to jail.
18 We know budgets and priorities.
I'm 19 telling you that all our big institutional problems 20 and accidents, and body parts all over the place. That 21 all revolves around budgets and priorities. We screw 22 up budgets and priorities, and budget cuts more than 23 anything else. And the bigger the organization, the 24 more problematic, and how much worse these things 25 have.
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Pentas Controls, that's another thing that 2
is going on with Exelon. How come the public doesn't 3
know what's going on with Pentas Controls? That's the 4
guy that --
Peach Bottom hired this guy to repair a 5
nuclear measuring device in the control room. I think 6
it was payment monitor or something like that, hired 7
him. Then he went down there and couldn't fix it, and 8
he went to Brunswick, or for some reason he got 9
Brunswick. They got their similar component and filed 10 the serial numbers off the module and put it into 11 Peach Bottom.
Peach Bottom didn't put it in their 12 plant but it got passed the receipt inspection.
13 How come Exelon doesn't have, you know, 14 their highly skilled people who receive new and 15 repaired parts?
You know, how come it got you 16 know, all the --
I mean, you must have a zillion rules 17 on receipt inspection and stuff. How did that get by?
18 How come a good guy with a conscience didn't bring it 19 to Exelon's attention that we've got a bum --
we can't 20 trust this device in Peach Bottom?
You know, it's 21 things of bigger troubles that Exelon would accept the 22 repaired parts.
23 Where's the --
the NRC says that they let 24 Exelon do their own investigation. Where's the list of 25 all the parts that went into Peach Bottom, and every NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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components and services that this guy at Pentas 2
Controls provided to Peach Bottom? Where's the list so 3
the public could understand the depth of what's going 4
on here? Where's the agency making sure that these 5
guys had a --
on their website had a list of half the 6
plants in the United -- nuclear plants in the United 7
States they did work on.
How come the NRC is not 8
giving us a public declaration that all these plants 9
have -- that any work that Pentas did, that they went 10 over that work and they made sure there was no more 11 bum parts, or fraudulent parts, or counterfeit parts 12 that they supplied, or counterfeit services, all that 13 sort of stuff. You know, we have --
the nation has a 14 sense that all those services that Pentas did were 15 complete and accurate.
It's just boggles the mind.
16 How did --
Brunswick, how comes there's no 17 no inspection report on Brunswick allowing this 18 guy to --
I don't know. What did he steal this module, 19 and give it to Peach Bottom?
You
- know, how come 20 Brunswick was Brunswick was there fraud 21 involved? Was somebody getting payola? Was Brunswick 22 paid off to get that module to Peach Bottom? Was the 23 receipt inspector paid off in order to accept that 24 module? Where's the inspection report on this? Where's 25 the 01 inspection report on this?
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involved with violating NRC regulations and giving 2
that module to --
not knowing where their module was 3
and giving it to Peach Bottom, you know?
4 There's a lot of things, and so like this 5
Pentas thing, we don't know the depth of what's going 6
on.
And it reeks of this decommissioning lack of 7
integrity and stuff like that.
8 And this LER that I talked to you about, 9
this reeks of dishonesty and telling half the truth 10 because it's because that's what the rules allow us 11 to do.
And these things poison the heart of people.
12 These kind of rules and the idiots in the system that 13 say oh, well, you know, all I've got to do is follow 14 the rules. They're the guys that get promoted.
The 15 guys that are honest and have integrity and are 16 smarter than hell and stuff like that, that have a 17 conscience and stuff, and things bother them, and 18 differentials bother them and stuff like that, they 19 usually get squashed down and that type of thing. It's 20 a terrible situation as far as I can see, as far as 21 honesty and integrity, and having a fair conscience is 22 a problem in the industry.
23 We could do a little talking about Exelon, 24
$2.3 billion less in their capital funds. I've talked 25 about this in the spring, in the summertime in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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heat wave.
I talked --
I said what is the nature of 2
the drought?
And Exelon, all their plants having 3
issues with not having adequate cooling for their 4
plants.
5 Braidwood, for example, Byron and a lot of 6
others ones, you know.
And I said well, you know, 7
maybe it's Exelon the design of their nuclear 8
system isn't adequate for the climate. And I said oh, 9
Jesus Christ, you're talking about a big thing there, 10 Mike.
And that's the truth, you know.
I got it right 11 there.
I says, you know, they're not funding enough 12 money.
They see these things happening with their 13 plants. They've got to spend more money and stuff, so 14 here we sit, you know, and a lot of plants don't have 15 adequate cooling and stuff like that.
16 And here we sit with Exelon cutting their 17 dividends 50 percent or so, and more to come.
And 18 natural gas, I talked about that with you guys and 19 stuff like that, is knocking at the door, making a lot 20 of new plants not -- vulnerable to cost pressures and 21 stuff like that.
22 So, here Exelon is telling us that these 23 windmills are coming in and, you know, I could go into 24
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could go on to it.
But here, windmills are causing, 2
you know, terrorizing employees of Exelon that they're 3
going to eventually have to shut down a few plants and 4
stuff like that.
And then they're talking about 5
capital expenditures.
6 You know that pump that's noisy over there 7
in the corner, that main feed pump that's got a
8 bearing that's noisy over there, maybe we ought to 9
replace that. Maybe we ought to replace that pump next 10 outage and that's capital expenditures.
That's the 11 sense of, you know, we have all these problems and we 12 only got 80 percent of the funds to fix these 13 problems, or deal with these problems and stuff like 14 that. That's -- we're missing 20 percent.
And that 15 missing 20 percent gets people around there say oh, 16 you know, budgets are more important than anything 17 else. And I know that pump should be replaced, and 18 we're going to have -- we're going to think of that in 19 two ways. We're going to say that pump should be --
is 20 broken and in-op, but we're going to tell everybody 21 that it's not in-op. So, you run along there with some 22 you know, with all the employees knowing this 23 little game and stuff like that, and secrets, and 24 forces of lying and stuff like that, and it sets up --
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It's an extremely intense NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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poison. You know, I don't think the NRC is immune to 2
these kind of problems, also.
3 Duke Energy, Crystal River, natural gas, 4
low cost price of electricity is forcing them to shut 5
down Crystal River. Dominion, Kewaunee, whatever that 6
is, you
- know, huge companies, huge numbers of 7
megawatts involved here and they're shutting down 8
nuclear power plants and stuff like that.
9 I'm telling you, if you keep playing these 10 rules with, you know, the agency closing their eyes 11 and the agency not getting the attention of these 12 utility officials, and it takes you eight to nine 13 years to make them come to terms with the 14 decommissioning funds, you know, what is with the 15 decommissioning funds?
16 Well, you know what, President Obama just 17 got elected, and within a month or two months of his 18 getting elected after years of ignoring it, all of a 19 sudden now the agency says miss it?
What's going on?
20 What's going on there?
I
- mean, how come?
How come 21 after a President gets elected for a second term and 22 that was his baby, how come --
it almost sounds like 23 the agency, you know, allowed this to continue on 24 until Obama wasn't electable any more.
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on that.
A guy like me can't question that and the 2
agency is forced to answer me and stuff like --
I can 3
ask a lot of good questions.
And honestly, it does 4
your people wonders to answer me.
I know I'm a little 5
guy and everybody calls me crazy, even my wife, but 6
she smiles when she says it.
But people need to answer 7
me but they don't. They need to answer the good people 8
of the United States, but they don't.
9 Safety to the agency means up to and 10 including a Fukushima nuclear accident as long as the ii accident doesn't exceed regulated offsite dose limits, 12 doesn't lead to an offsite fatality.
When they say the 13 SRVs are safe, that means they can't have an accident 14 worse than Fukushima. That's what safe means to these 15 guys.
That's how it goes through their computer 16 programs and their risk analysis, and all that sort of 17 stuff.
The razzle dazzle that nobody understands, 18 that's what it means and stuff. And you never know 19 what safety means with the agency.
20 How much more longer I got?
21 MR.
KIM:
It's a quarter of, so you may 22 have about another five or ten minutes.
23 MR.
MULLIGAN:
All right.
So, you know, 24 Fukushima, excuse me, it might have been.
Fort 25 Calhoun, you know, they just, you know, they just had NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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an update on their LERs.
You know, how come -- Jesus, 2
how come they --
Peach Bottom threaded seal LER wasn't 3
updated and stuff like that, you know.
How come that 4
thermal thing is it should be a wrong material 5
thing.
6 You know, that's a lie.
You guys know that 7
there was inaccurate information there, and how come 8
that is not fixed and explained away? You know, and 9
all those things that I
told you about, receipt 10 inspection and all that sort of stuff. How come the 11 public never understands what's going on behind the 12 scenes with these things? How come these LERs are so 13 incomplete and they're not updated?
And the NRC 14 doesn't think LERs are important, not only to 15 themselves but to the public at large and the 16 investors, and rate payers.
17 So,
- anyway, you know, finally they met 18 these temperature limits and nitrile elastomers. Well, 19 Buna is a nitrile elastomer, so it's kind of humorous 20 that you --
the plant calls it a nitrile elastomer, 21 and the other one calls it Buna-N and stuff like that.
22 So, you know, they talk about it was designed to 180 23 degrees and their containment temperature is 120 but, 24 you know, the containment temperature reached 370 25 degrees, you know, for an hour or so. I don't know how NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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many --
I could guess how long that would be.
2 The Causal Analysis did not determine 3
while the nitrile elastomers were installed during the 4
original plant construction
- and, however, it was 5
determined that the procedure deficiency and the human 6
error resulted in the wrong type of actuator material, 7
elastomer material be used in the instrument air 8
filter and the air accumulators.
9 So, you know, again where is the agency 10 saying, you know, how do --
now we have evidence that 11 at least one plant was allowed to put improper 12 materials and safety nuclear grade safety 13 actuators. So, how come we're not pulling our hair out 14 trying to get all the rest of the utilities to 15 identify similar actuators and they have the --
and we 16 all have the assurance that these plants can sustain 17 their accident temperatures of 370 degrees and stuff.
18 How come the agency is not like that and 19 saying, you know, can't recognize that this is more 20 than a plant issue, it is a widespread issue. And, you 21
- know, we've got to come up with a list of all the 22 components that might have had these kind of actuators 23 and improper material in
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elastomers for the regulator and actuator.
2 They did not specifically address whether 3
the material being used could handle the DBA.
I mean, 4
that is so unprofessional on an operator scale, a
5 licensed operator scale, and the technical people, the 6
engineers and stuff like
- that, that's so being 7
unprofessional, you know.
Exelon, they're going to 8
manage this plant.
9 10 CFR 50.73(a) (2) (v) (D),
"In the event a 10 condition that could have prevented the fulfillment of 11 the safety functions of structures or systems that 12 needed to mitigate the consequence of an accident." I 13 still can't get over that. Exelon is cutting their 14 dividend and they're cutting their capital budgets, 15 and they're not upgrading any of their nuclear plants 16 to the tune of $2.3 million, billion dollars, excuse 17 me, got to get my Bs right.
18 I mean, I just --
the pressures that are 19 going on here in all these big plants, all these big 20 companies, biggest utilities in the United States are 21 tremendous, and a lot of people are worrying, and I 22 worry NRC's asleep. Things are changing, and the --
23 like I said with budgets, inside a plant, you know, 24 I mean, the first thing you realize is that how blind 25 you are when you're going into the budget problems.
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And the second thing that anybody has gotten burnt by 2
these budget problems and cause institutional problem 3
is you've got to ramp up your honesty 100 times and 4
stuff like that.
I
- mean, that's you've got to 5
communicate more honestly and more completely. That's 6
the only way --
if you have a budget crisis or lack of 7
- budgets, or limitations, priorities and stuff like 8
that. You've got to communicate more between people 9
and within the organizations and stuff like that. You 10 just can't just sit there and say the easy way out is 11 we're going to cut 5 percent and that'll be easy. You 12 really have to do a lot of extra stuff.
13 You know, really it's what has the 14 agency done? You know, what has the agency done to 15 ramp up this honesty and kind of confront this? Why is 16
-- that seems to be a lot of problems with plants now.
17 What is the root cause, what are the factors that 18 cause this, what are the deeper factors that cause 19 this and all that sort of stuff? Instead of just 20 sticking there and, you know, looking at a threaded 21 seal as an isolated part and not worrying and wringing 22 your hands, and pulling out your hair wondering what's 23 the big picture? I've got to know the big picture 24 behind what's causing these little problems.
And if 25 you have a little problem here that's similar to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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another little problem here, you know, why ain't you 2
pulling out more of your hair and stuff like that?
3 Where's the worry? I don't see that. I see 4
these I
see the agency running around basically 5
feeling comfortable that they're following the rules 6
that the politicians wrote for them and stuff like 7
that.
I see a lot of agency people not having a
8 conscience because they're probably going to get 9
punished or pay a price if they look at the bigger 10 picture, and challenge their conscience, and challenge 11 their status and things, and try to make the agency be 12 prepared for this falling off the cliff of most of our 13 major utilities with natural gas.
14 This is a Hurricane Katrina. This is a
15 Hurricane Sandy. This is a Blizzard Nemo that's coming 16 down on you guys, and you can't operate like the way 17 you've done in the past. And you should be banging on 18 these politicians to help you out as far as rules and 19 regulations, and to be able to see more, and to be 20 able to use a sledgehammer to get people's attention 21 at times, especially these executives and stuff like 22 that.
23 We're really going to do damage to our 24 nation if we don't get a handle on what's going on 25 here.
This is a climate change.
This is a
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economic climate change that's going on in the 2
industry as far as this natural gas business. We don't 3
know how long this thing is going to last, but as it 4
is now it's affecting so many people and stuff like 5
that. You know, the politicians are supposed to be in 6
there helping the agency to do the people's business.
7 You know, we can't have this independent agency out 8
here disconnected from the politicians and stuff like 9
that. We have to have the politicians helping us to 10 manage our electric
- system, and especially this 11 invaluable 20 percent component of our electric 12 system.
We really need a lot of people.
You know, 13 they're all mixed up in Washington, too busy doing 14 this and being overwhelmed by that. They sit there and 15 too many problems, and too many limitations, and too 16 lack of vision. And it's I fear for the future if 17 we don't wake up.
18 I'm Mike Mulligan, and thank you for this 19 opportunity. I'm done.
20 CHAIR EVANS:
Okay.
All
- right, Mr.
21 Mulligan. Thank you for taking time to provide the NRC 22 staff with additional information on the petition that 23 you've submitted.
24 At this time, does the Staff here at 25 headquarters have any questions for Mr. Mulligan? No?
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- Okay, how about the regional folks on the line, any 2
questions?
3 MR.
HANSEL:
No questions from Peach 4
Bottom. Thank you.
5 CHAIR EVANS:
Before we close does the 6
court reporter need any additional information for the 7
meeting transcript?
8 COURT REPORTER: No, just one question. The 9
gentleman who just said that he had no questions, 10 could he identify himself?
11 MR.
HANSEL:
This is Sam Hansel, Senior 12 Resident at Peach Bottom.
13 COURT REPORTER: Thank you, sir.
14 MR.
HANSEL: You're welcome.
15 CHAIR EVANS: Okay. With that, the meeting 16 is concluded and we will be terminating the phone 17 connection. Thank you.
18 (Whereupon, the proceedings went off the 19 record at 2:54:25 p.m.)
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Proceeding:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition Review in re Peach Bottom by Michael Mulligan Docket Number: n/a Location:
teleconference were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction and that said transcript is a true and accurate record of the proceedings.
Official Reporter Neal R. Gross & Co.,
Inc.
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