ML17163A424
| ML17163A424 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Vermont Yankee File:NorthStar Vermont Yankee icon.png |
| Issue date: | 05/25/2017 |
| From: | Office of Nuclear Material Safety and Safeguards |
| To: | |
| JDParrott NMSS/DUWP/RDB 415-6634 T-8E47 | |
| References | |
| NRC-3086 | |
| Download: ML17163A424 (149) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Vermont Nuclear Decommissioning Citizens' Advisory Panel Meeting Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
Brattleboro, Vermont Date:
Thursday, May 25, 2017 Work Order No.:
NRC-3086 Pages 1-148 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 VERMONT NUCLEAR DECOMMISSIONING CITIZENS' 4
ADVISORY PANEL MEETING 5
+ + + + +
6 THURSDAY 7
MAY 25, 2017 8
+ + + + +
9 BRATTLEBORO, VERMONT 10 The Public Meeting was convened at 109 11 Sunny Acres in Brattleboro, Vermont at 6:00 p.m. by 12 Kate O'Connor, Chair of the Vermont Nuclear 13 Decommissioning Citizens Advisory Panel, presiding 14 PRESENT:
15 Chris Campany, Windham Regional Commission.
16 David Deen, Citizen Member 17 Mark MacDonald, Vermont Senate Representative 18 Steve Skibniowsky, Town of Vernon 19 David Andrews, International Brotherhood of Electrical 20 Workers 21 Jim Tonkovich, Vermont Senate Representative 22 Martin Langeveld, Citizen Member 23 Jim Matteau, Citizen Member 24 Derrik Jordan, Citizen Member 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 Bill Irwin, Department of Health Radiological and 1
Toxicological Sciences.
2 Riley Allen, Deputy Commissioner, Vermont Department 3
of Public Service.
4 Mike McKenney, Entergy.
5 Jack Boyle, Entergy 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
(6:05 p.m.)
2 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Good evening. Good 3
evening, everybody. My name is Kate O'Connor, and I 4
am the chair of the Vermont Nuclear Decommissioning 5
Citizens Advisory Panel, which is the meeting you are 6
all at tonight. And I want to officially call to 7
order the May 25th, 2017, meeting of the Panel.
8 What I'm going to do for some of you who 9
may -- this may be your first meeting, I want to 10 explain a little bit about what the Panel is and what 11 we do. We are a nineteen-member panel that was formed 12 by the Legislature back in 2014 when Entergy announced 13 that they would be closing Vermont Yankee. We have 14 been meeting since September 2014. And in that time, 15 I think we've had twenty-five or twenty-six meetings.
16 So we've been meeting pretty much on a regular basis.
17 The Legislature gave us a series of 18 duties, but the one that is really most relevant for 19 tonight is that we are -- we are to serve as a conduit 20 for public information and education, and to encourage 21 community involvement in all matters related to the 22 decommissioning of Vermont Yankee.
23 Before I go over the agenda, I want all of 24 our Panel members to introduce themselves. We have a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 diverse group. I was appointed by Governor Shumlin as 1
a citizen member of the Panel.
2 So Chris, do you want to start that on 3
your end?
4 MR. CAMPANY: Chris Campany, Windham 5
Regional Commission.
6 MR. DEEN: David Deen, citizen appointee 7
by the Speaker of the House.
8 SENATOR MACDONALD: Mark MacDonald, 9
Representative Vermont Senate and on this Panel.
10 MR. SKIBNIOWSKY: Good evening; I'm Steve 11 Skibniowsky, representing the Town of Vernon and 12 nominated by the Vernon Board of Selectmen.
13 MR. ANDREWS: David Andrews, representing 14 the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers 15 and representing the past and present employees of 16 Vermont Yankee.
17 MR. TONKOVICH: Jim Tonkovich, I'm an 18 appointee from the Senate President Pro Temp.
19 MR. LANGEVELD: Martin Langeveld, a 20 citizen member appointed by Governor Shumlin.
21 MR. MATTEAU: Jim Matteau, also a citizen 22 member appointed by the President Pro Temp.
23 MR. JORDAN: Derrik Jordan, citizen member 24 appointed by Shap Smith.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 DR. IRWIN: Bill Irwin, representing the 1
Agency of Human Services. I work for the Department 2
of Health Radiological and Toxicological Sciences.
3 MR. ALLEN: And I'm Riley Allen. I'm 4
Deputy Commissioner of the Vermont Department of 5
Public Service. I'm here sitting in for Commissioner 6
June Tierney, who is out of the country.
7 MR. MCKENNEY: Good evening. I'm Mike 8
McKenney. I'm representing Entergy.
9 MR. BOYLE: Good evening. I'm Jack Boyle, 10 also representing Entergy. I'm the Decommissioning 11 Director at Vermont Yankee.
12 CHAIR O'CONNOR: We're going to have you 13 guys -- you folks introduce yourselves in a minute.
14 This is an official meeting of our Panel.
15 And tonight, we have our special guests which are 16 representatives from Entergy and NorthStar and the 17 NRC. And they're going to be, as you know, on the 18 agenda for later.
19 The representatives from the NRC are here 20 to take public comment on the license transfer, which 21 is the sale from Entergy to NorthStar, and NorthStar's 22 post-shutdown decommissioning activities report, which 23 is called the P.S.D.A.R., which for all of you who 24 don't know what that is, it's the decommissioning plan 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 which includes the cost estimates for decommissioning 1
the plant.
2 The NRC is required to take public comment 3
on the license transfer, but they are not required to 4
hold a public meeting. But they have agreed to come 5
here tonight. The Panel invited them to come, as did 6
Vermont's congressional delegation. And I want to 7
thank their representatives of Senator Sanders, 8
Congressmen Welch, and Senator Leahy here tonight. We 9
have Haley Pero from Senator Sanders' office, Tom 10 Berry from Senator Leahy's office, and George Twigg 11 from Congressman Welch. And they can all wave.
12 So we really appreciate -- we appreciate 13 their help. And I also want to again thank the 14 Nuclear Regulatory Commission for accepting our 15 invitation to come here this evening.
16 Just so everybody knows, when we get to 17 the comment period all of the converse -- comments are 18 going to be recorded by the Nuclear Regulatory 19 Commission and entered into the public record. If you 20 don't want to comment this evening, there is a 21 mechanism that you can do so through the NRC website.
22 And the comment period is going to be through June 23 23rd.
24 And what we're going to do is put the link 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 on how to do it on the State of Vermont's website.
1 And if no one minds, if you signed up, I will send you 2
how to get that. So if you're shy and you don't want 3
to make a comment tonight, you have another close to 4
a month to do so.
5 The first half of the meeting, we're going 6
to have Entergy and NorthStar talk to us about the 7
license transfer and the post-shutdown decommissioning 8
activities report. And then the NRC is going to walk 9
us through the process that they used to decide 10 whether they're going to accept the license transfer 11 application.
12 One of the things I want to remind 13 everybody is that this is an NDCAP meeting and we're 14 a Panel that was created by the state, which means we 15 follow all Open Meeting Laws and we follow Robert's 16 Rules of Order and a charter that we all developed two 17 and a half years ago.
18 So what I would ask is that everybody sort 19 of respect how we run our meetings. They've gone 20 smoothly in the past, so I'm hoping that they will go 21 smoothly tonight. And I think we're going to start 22 what we normally do at -- at our meetings, Joe Lynch, 23 who is the Senior Government Affairs Manager, gives us 24 an update on the decommissioning of the plant.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 So for those of you who have been here 1
before, this will be like the next chapter or whatever 2
in the book. For some of you, this may be the first 3
time that you hear a decommissioning report from Joe.
4 And everything that -- the presentations that Joe 5
gives are on -- the Entergy has a website, V Y 6
decommissioning dot com. So if you're really 7
intrigued and want to watch everything that's happened 8
before -- or see everything that's happened before you 9
can easily catch up with that.
10 So I guess we'll turn it over to Joe.
11 MR. LYNCH: Thank you, Kate.
12 Next slide, please.
13 As Kate has mentioned, my name is Joe 14 Lynch. I'm a Senior Government Affairs Manager for 15 Entergy Vermont Yankee. I'm going to provide you with 16 a brief update on the status of decommissioning, the 17 decommissioning trust fund, and some of the activities 18 that we have moving towards the transaction.
19 Next slide, please. Next slide.
20 One of the key projects right now at the 21 site is the construction of the second of two dry fuel 22 storage pads. The construction on the second pad 23 started back in 2016. There was a break over the 24 winter period due to weather. We restarted 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 construction of the pad on March 13th. We've been 1
moving right along with progress. Just this week, we 2
completed the reinforcing bar placement for the second 3
pad. So the pad is now ready to accept concrete. And 4
that -- that pour will be scheduled, we believe, next 5
week, weather depending.
6 In addition to that, we've been going 7
through the efforts of getting ready for our 2017 dry 8
fuel storage campaign. At this point, we're 9
estimating that if we start over the next couple 10 weeks, which is our target, we'll be loading 11 approximately twenty dry casks in 2017. Then again, 12 we'll take a break over the winter for weather reasons 13 and we'll complete the remaining dry casks. There's 14 a total of forty-five casks that have yet to be 15 loaded. There are thirteen on the pad right now for 16 our total of fifty-eight.
17 Our target is to have all fuel transferred 18 either in the late third quarter of 2018 or early 19 fourth quarter of 2018. Again, part of that is 20 weather dependent and ensuring that our -- we meet our 21
-- our schedule.
22 Next slide, please.
23 Some current pictures in the upper right-24 hand corner, that is the correct configuration of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 first pad with the thirteen casks. We recently 1
rearranged that configuration to be ready for the 2
acceptance of the new loaded cask, which I had 3
mentioned we'll start very soon.
4 The picture in the lower left is the 5
pouring of what is known as the leveling slab. So 6
this is essentially the -- a pad that is put in place.
7 We can then place the rebar on top of it. That was 8
done recently and that sets the stage for then 9
constructing the second pad.
10 Next slide, please.
11 On the right-hand side, you can see 12 workers putting the rebar in place -- the reinforcing 13 bar in place on top of that leveling slab. And then 14 you can see, in the lower left, the rebar being rigged 15 in place. This is very heavy steel that is placed in 16 a -- in a very detailed configuration. It is then 17 wired together and in advance of us pouring the 18 concrete.
19 Next slide, please.
20 We've been talking about water management 21 for about a year and a half now. As many of you know 22 from previous meetings, we have water entering into 23 the lower elevations of our turbine building. Over 24 that period of time, we have made measures to capture 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 that water stored on site and then ultimately ship it.
1 We continue to monitor the intrusion water 2
and address it by making repairs to any cracks or 3
crevices where water is coming in. We continue those 4
efforts and they've been very successful in reducing 5
the amount of intrusion water. This time of year and 6
in the springtime is -- is typically a time of the 7
year that you see an increase in the groundwater 8
elevation and, therefore, an increase in that 9
intrusion. Because of the efforts we've been able to 10 maintain and manage that to very low numbers. I don't 11 have today's number, but I think we're looking at 12 about three -- about six hundred gallons a day is --
13 is the number that -- that we're seeing.
14 The groundwater is captured, placed into 15 frac tanks, tested and then shipped to EnergySolutions 16 where they have a licensed disposal site in Tennessee.
17 Right now, we're shipping about three per month at the 18 present intrusion rate. And we've shipped five 19 hundred and seventeen thousand gallons to date.
20 Next slide, please. Next slide.
21 In regards to the two efforts that are 22 necessary to go forward with the transaction, one, of 23 course, will be discussed in a very short matter of 24 time as the NRC has been requested to take a look at 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 a license transfer application, as well as the revised 1
P.S.D.A.R. We're also going through the process of 2
seeking approval from the State of Vermont Public 3
Service Board through the Certificate of Public Good 4
Process.
5 The first round of discovery requests on 6
us were sent out on March 17th. We provided responses 7
on April 26th. There has been a request by Department 8
of Public Service and others to extend -- extend that 9
a bit because of certain documents that are -- are 10 confidential in nature. So we had to file a motion to 11 ensure that these confidential documents were treated 12 in a certain way, and that those -- those entities 13 that intervened would -- would respect them that way.
14 There's also a couple of documents that 15 are very sensitive to NorthStar's business that also 16 need special treatment. And we're going through the 17 process right now of getting that protocol worked out.
18 So the second round of discovery requests 19 on us were supposed to be May 10th, but because of the 20 delay in this handling of documents, that will be 21 delayed to be about three weeks after all documents 22 have been produced.
23 There's also been some motions by some of 24 the intervenors, including New England Coalition, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 asking for partial summary judgment going back to some 1
earlier dockets on some orders that had already been 2
made. Those are going through the process in the 3
Public Service Board.
4 Bottom
- line, very
- detailed, very 5
comprehensive process of going through this approval 6
in the State of Vermont. And we're hoping that this 7
will all take place over the next year or so with 8
approval at the end of first quarter 2018.
9 Next slide, please. Next slide.
10 An update on the Nuclear Decommissioning 11 Trust Fund at the end of March, last reported the 12 Decommissioning Trust Fund was at five hundred and 13 sixty-eight point nine million dollars. The most 14 current number at the end of April was five hundred 15 and seventy million dollars. That increase was due to 16 positive market performance, offset by the qualified 17 reimbursements that we have made from the trust and 18 some of the fund expenses that we have to pay, 19 essentially taxes.
20 So to date in 2017, we've made just under 21 twelve million dollars in qualified withdrawals.
22 We've earned about twenty-one point seven million 23 dollars in market gains and paid one point four 24 million dollars in -- in expenses.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 The second trust that we've been 1
maintaining is a Site Restoration Trust. This is 2
wholly funded by Entergy. We have made four payments 3
of five million dollars, or twenty million dollars.
4 However, due to growth of the trust fund, that 5
currently stands at twenty-three point six million 6
dollars at the end of April. And we have one five 7
million dollars contribution yet to be made at the end 8
of this year.
9 Next slide, please.
10 Insofar as our communications and 11 providing information to the public, we continue, 12 obviously, to participate in this Panel. We continue 13 to do speaking engagements, media interviews, local 14 advertising, and we continue to be very strong 15 partners with our community. On occasion, we are able 16 to do tours at the site. They, of course, are going 17 to be impacted by ongoing site activities. So we need 18 to be mindful to a lot of work that's going on at the 19 site. So we ask, if we have these type of tours, we 20 get advance notice.
21 And then of course, we continue to put 22 information out through our website V
Y 23 decommissioning dot com. And I'm happy to report that 24 the website has been updated recently and it continues 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 to be updated. This is a screenshot. If you were to 1
go on to V Y decommissioning dot com, you will see 2
kind of the updated website that now has search 3
capabilities. And it is being updated constantly with 4
the latest information.
5 And we're also going through the process 6
of renaming a lot of these documents to make it easier 7
for individuals to find them and kind of migrate their 8
way through. There's been a lot of information put 9
out. And we're committed to making sure that we can 10 get that information out efficiently.
11 And unless there's any questions, that was 12 kind of the end of what I planned and prepared, Kate.
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great; thank you, Joe.
14 Just so everybody -- I'm not sure how many 15 people have the paper agenda. And we're going to 16 flash it up on the screen later. The public comment 17 portion of this meeting will start in about an hour.
18 And if you want to speak and haven't signed up, there 19 are sign-up sheets over on the table. We will have a 20 break after the presentations are made. So you don't 21 have to storm the table right now. There will be 22 opportunity between when this portion ends and when 23 the public comment period begins.
24 Next, I want to invite Scott State, who is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 the C.E.O. of NorthStar, and Mike Twomey, who is the 1
Vice President for External Affairs of Entergy, to --
2 I guess, you're going to walk us through the license 3
transfer and possibly the P.S.D.A.R., but I'll let you 4
tell us what you're going to talked about.
5 MR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Kate.
6 This is Mike Twomey on behalf of Entergy.
7 This is a joint presentation between Entergy and 8
NorthStar. I have a limited role at the frontend of 9
the presentation and I'll be turning it over to Scott 10 in just -- just a few minutes.
11 I want to thank the Panel and the 12 chairwoman for inviting us to participate in this 13 meeting tonight, provide additional information about 14 this transaction. So with no more introductory 15 remarks, I'll go to the next slide.
16 Start briefly with what I hope is a 17 complementary update without duplicating anything that 18 Joe Lynch just covered. Right now, we have 19 approximately a hundred and fifty employees at the 20 site. That is our -- our staffing level that we 21 expect to maintain through approximately the third or 22 fourth quarter of 2018. The next major milestone is 23 the completion of the dry fuel storage project.
24 So when that work that Joe was referring 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 to earlier is completed, when all of the canisters 1
have been moved on to the pad, all the spent fuel 2
moved out of the pool, we will have a staffing 3
reduction at that time. Along the way, we will 4
continue to have our communications with the Panel, as 5
well as employees and regulatory bodies.
6 Joe mentioned we've got a certificate of 7
public good pending in front of the Public Service 8
Board. In -- in general, for those of you who weren't 9
that familiar with it, it's an application seeking 10 approval from the Public Service Board for the 11 transaction that we've proposed.
12 We have a similar, but -- but separate, 13 filing pending in front of the Nuclear Regulatory 14 Commission. We also need approval from that federal 15 agency for the transaction.
16 Joe spent some time talking about the 17 discovery issues. I'll say that right now the 18 procedural schedule contemplates one more public 19 hearing opportunity, similar to the one that we had 20 earlier in the year. I don't believe the date of that 21 has been nailed down. I think it's currently 22 September 5th or 6th, depending on -- on availability.
23 That date, itself, may be adjusted, depending on where 24 we are with the discovery process and the -- and the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 testimony process.
1 We will have evidentiary
- hearings, 2
technical hearings, I believe, is the right term in 3
front of the Public Service Board, late in the year.
4 Those hearings are currently scheduled for November.
5 But it is -- is possible that the discovery issues and 6
the testimony deadlines will impact the schedule for 7
the technical hearing. So I would say that at this 8
point those -- those are not set in stone.
9 We have requested that the board take 10 action on the application by the end of the first 11 quarter of 2018. We obviously have no power to compel 12 the schedule for the board. We've simply told them 13 that -- that that's the schedule we -- we would hope 14 they could meet. And we'll just see how the process 15 unfolds.
16 We've got the license transfer application 17 pending at the NRC. And NorthStar submitted an 18 updated post-shutdown decommissioning activities 19 report on April 6th. And I'm going to let Scott talk 20 about those details. But in general, those of you 21 who've been following this closely, Entergy filed a 22 P.S.D.A.R. back in November of 2014.
23 This document, this new P.S.D.A.R. would 24 be a substitute for the earlier filed Entergy document 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 and would become the operative document for the 1
project if the transaction is approved by both the NRC 2
and the P.S.B. The -- the timeline at the bottom 3
there on -- on this slide is -- is the timeline that 4
was reflected in the post-shutdown decommissioning 5
activities report that Entergy submitted back in 2014.
6 Everyone knows we ceased commercial operations in 7
December of 2014. The reactor was permanently 8
defueled in January 2015. We contemplated fuel 9
transfer by 2020.
10 So the first update that you've gotten in 11 the last few months is that we now believe we can 12 complete that fuel transfer by the third or fourth 13 quarter of 2018, which is a two-year improvement on 14 the fuel transfer schedule that we had originally 15 anticipated.
16 That means that the SAFSTORE dormancy 17 period would commence under our ownership, if we 18 retain ownership, after the fuel is moved to the pad 19 in 2018. And that will be of some indeterminate 20 length. I don't want to go into too much detail 21 tonight because we're really focused on the license 22 transfer application. But that SAFSTORE period will 23 be however long it needs to be under the requirements 24 of the settlement agreement that we have at the State 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 of Vermont, the funding of the Nuclear Decommissioning 1
Trust Fund, and the decommissioning cost estimate that 2
we have for the project under Entergy's ownership.
3 And so the rest of the dates are -- are, 4
again, dates that would be in -- in effect if Entergy 5
retains the ownership of the site.
6 So if we go to the next slide?
7 I'll just -- you know, introduce this 8
concept again, which is that one of the primary 9
benefits of the proposed transaction is that it 10 substantially accelerates the safe decommissioning of 11 the plant under ownership of a company and -- and with 12 work, with a team that it's put together that has the 13 capacity and the experience and the expertise to 14 complete the decommissioning project on a much quicker 15 timeline than under Entergy's ownership.
16 And so with
- that, I'll turn the 17 presentation over to Scott State.
18 MR. STATE: Thank you, Mike.
19 And thank you, Kate.
20 I'm Scott State. I'm the Chief Executive 21 Officer of NorthStar. Just with a show of hands, how 22 many folks are here that haven't been to any of these 23 meetings before where we've spoken? Not too many.
24 That -- that's good. That means there's, I think, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 good engagement among the community here. I'm not 1
going to go over a lot of things that I've gone over 2
before. But I do want to, initially here, cover who 3
our team is.
4 NorthStar, if -- if you go around the 5
room, you can see we've put up some large photographs 6
this evening to show you some of the large-scale 7
projects that -- that we've done. And I'm going to 8
get to that in a little bit, but it's important, just 9
in terms of the scale of work that we do, as we 10 consider how we would do this project. And you know, 11 what you'll find is that the size of projects that 12 we've done in many -- many cases bound the size of 13 Vermont Yankee. And -- and I'll talk through that a 14 little bit more as we get into it.
15 In addition to ourselves on our team, 16 we've got AREVA and we've talked about AREVA at past 17 meetings. AREVA's a large nuclear services business.
18 It's a French-owned company. The subsidiary that we 19 work with is a U.S. based firm in Washington D.C. And 20 they have a couple of specific things they're going to 21 do for us on this project.
22 One is they are going to segment the 23 reactor vessel and the reactor vessel internals. And 24 that -- that's a significant component of the project 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 in that it's got a high degree of highly radioactive 1
material. That's one of the first activities that 2
we'll do. AREVA will also be assisting us over the 3
many years that we will be caretaker for the spent 4
nuclear fuel that will remain at the site until the 5
Department of Energy comes and removes it.
6 A second subcontractor is Burns and 7
McDonnell. Burns and McDonnell is a large engineering 8
firm based in Kansas City. And they are specifically 9
going to support us with some engineering activities 10 and some licensing activities as we do this project.
11 And our third supplier is Waste Control 12 Specialists, or W.C.S., based in Texas, an important 13 component of this team because they take the 14 radioactive waste or the material that comes from the 15 decommissioning project and it goes to their site in 16 Texas for disposal.
17 W.C.S. is part of -- is the disposal site 18 for the Texas and Vermont Compact. So by statute, the 19 material created at this project will have a right to 20 be disposed at that site and they're are partner on 21 this project as well.
22 Turning to the next slide, I'll let Mike 23 start off. This is a transition period between 24 Entergy and -- and NorthStar.
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23 MR. TWOMEY: So for very briefly, we shut 1
the facility down in 2014 and over the next several 2
years we've been focused on getting the dry fuel 3
storage campaign completed. That is taking the spent 4
nuclear fuel that's currently in the spent nuclear 5
fuel pool and moving it into the canisters that are on 6
the dry cask storage cask pads in the yard. And the 7
-- the effort to do that, when completed, will have 8
removed approximately ninety-five percent or more of 9
the radioactive material from the plant and isolated 10 that to the ISFSI pad.
11 The next step after you do that is to 12 focus on the major dismantling work. And as the owner 13 of that facility in 2014, we were hearing loud and 14 clear from the community, from the state, from all 15 stakeholders, that the primary concern was that this 16 site be decommissioned as quickly as possible, while 17
-- while safely, but -- but not have the site languish 18 for -- for sixty years.
19 And so in an effort to be responsive to 20 those concerns, we evaluated the potential for another 21 owner of that facility who is an expert in 22 decommissioning, and -- and made the determination 23 that this project could be turned over to a new owner 24 who could do it as safely as we could, but more cost 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 effectively and more efficiently than we could. And 1
then that presents the opportunity for this 2
transaction that we're talking about this evening.
3 And with that, I'll turn it over to Scott 4
to talk about what work they would do if the 5
transaction were approved.
6 MR. STATE: So if -- if this transaction 7
does get approved in 2018, we will take ownership of 8
the site. And the first two years of our project work 9
will be focused on segmenting the reactor vessel and 10 the reactor vessel internals. And that will take the 11 removal of radiological material out of the plant to 12 about ninety-nine percent of what was the original 13 source term, leaving about one percent residual 14 radioactive material that we will be removing, with a 15 very vast majority of the volume of material coming 16 out of the site after that. And this is contamination 17 on concrete and that sort of thing that we will be 18 dealing with post the removal of the vessel in the 19 internals.
20 So you can see the title of this chart is 21 actually Vermont Yankee Contaminated Site Cleanup.
22 And it's -- it's an important distinction that we make 23 when we look at a project like this. We aren't 24 nuclear power plant operators. And we don't really 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 view this specifically as a cleanup of a facility 1
that's a nuclear power plant. We view it as 2
decommissioning of a contaminated site.
3 And all around this room, you see pictures 4
of large projects that we've done where we've 5
decommissioned some type of contaminated site. And it 6
may have been contaminated with radiological materials 7
or P.C.B.s or mercury or other hazardous components or 8
asbestos, but -- but everything that we do as a 9
company is -- involves remediating contaminated 10 facilities or sites. And that's exactly how we view 11 Vermont Yankee.
12 So you know, our project durations here, 13 you can see that once we get the vessel out, and the 14 internals, those are segmented, they're packaged, and 15 they are shipped to Texas. We've got about a six-year 16 program planned at this point in time for the final 17 decommissioning activities which would take the site 18 to what would be determined a partial site release.
19 And it's called a partial site release 20 because the ISFSI with the spent fuel in the -- in the 21 canisters that are -- are there, that piece of the 22 site can't be released until that fuel is taken away.
23 So site-wise, you know, all but a very small number of 24 acres can be released in -- in roughly 2026. And that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 would be our target schedule at this point.
1 And then how long we -- we have the ISFSI 2
in place is -- is really not in our control. We 3
certainly would like to see D.O.E. come and take that 4
fuel away. Once that piece of the project is done, we 5
will remove the ISFSI pad. And all of that remaining 6
material and the site then will be -- will go for a 7
final license determination and a full site release.
8 So as I mentioned, as a company, NorthStar 9
has decommissioned thousands of facilities of various 10 sizes with various types of contaminants. There's a 11 number of projects back here that have radiological 12 components, some of them significantly larger in 13 various aspects of the work. What we've done with 14 these -- with these photographs -- and we'll probably 15 present these again at -- at future meetings. And you 16 know, if folks want to talk when we're at the break 17 with any of our people, we've got quite a few of our 18 employees here this evening that can kind of walk you 19 through these various projects.
20 But there's placards on each project that 21 show you the volume of contaminated concrete metal and 22 soil that was involved in each one of them. And then 23 there's also a line on those that show you what the 24 equivalent or the same amount -- materials are in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 Vermont Yankee. And it will give you kind of an idea, 1
I think, that we've got a lot of bounding projects on 2
a comparative basis.
3 We also have a short video which we'll 4
show in just a few minutes. And it's -- a lot of it 5
is time lapse footage of us removing large structures, 6
commercial industrial structures, and that type of 7
thing. And you can see -- over, you know, less than 8
ten minutes, you'll see many years of work that we've 9
done on a time lapse basis.
10 So going forward to the next -- excuse me 11
-- three charts, this chart -- on each of the next 12 three charts, you'll see a green box. The green box 13 is the volume of material that we will be removing on 14 an annual basis at Vermont Yankee. Vermont Yankee is 15 a six-year project with various phases. So on an 16 annual basis, we look at how much material we would 17 generate in each of three primary waste classes; 18 concrete, metals, and soil.
19 So in terms of concrete, I don't know if 20 you can read this in the audience or not, but the --
21 the primary large structures that we deal with that 22 have concrete are going to be commercial. Power 23 plants -- you know, nuclear power plants have a 24 significant amount of concrete because it's -- you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 know, it's the way the plants are built and it has 1
shielding capabilities. But for the most part, the 2
very large amounts of concrete waste that are 3
generated in decommissioning projects come from 4
commercial jobs.
5 And as you can see, the -- the largest 6
facility here, an industrial facility, which happened 7
to be a smelter, had two hundred thousand tons of 8
concrete per year. And the reason this is important 9
is in a project like this, these types of projects are 10 logistics jobs. You're -- you're moving volumes of 11 material and your ability to move volumes of material 12 will determine how quickly you can get the work done.
13 So you know, just on a comparative basis, 14 Vermont Yankee is about sixteen thousand tons of 15 concrete per year. Our largest project that we've 16 done in the last five to seven years is two hundred 17 thousand.
All of these
- projects, there's 18 approximately fifteen I think here, are -- are, you 19 know, roughly double or more the size of the amount of 20 concrete that we will generate and remove at Vermont 21 Yankee.
22 Similarly, the next slide shows metals.
23 In a project like this, the primary metals in a 24 nuclear plant are going to be rebar. Joe showed you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 the construction of the ISFSI. The laying of rebar.
1 If you are familiar with how this plant was built, the 2
-- the structures of this plant have a lot of very 3
heavy rebar in them. So we will be breaking the 4
concrete out and separating the metal, typically, the 5
rebar mesh, and packaging all of this for disposal at 6
the W.C.S. site in Texas.
7 So from -- from this figure, you can see 8
that as far as metals on projects, there are a lot of 9
these projects that are power plants. And a fossil 10 plant, interestingly enough, has a lot more structural 11 steel in it than a nuclear plant. The structural 12 materials in a nuclear plant, a lot of those are 13 actually concrete. In a fossil plant, there are 14 typically large steel members and then a lot of rebar 15 mesh, as well.
16 But you know, here, you can see we've got 17 a number of projects, some two to three times the size 18 of Vermont Yankee, on an annual production basis of 19 metals that we would have removed and disposed of.
20 And then the last slide deals directly 21 with soils. And when we went through and looked at 22 these kinds of projects, we actually -- we do a lot of 23 heavy civil environmental work where we maybe build 24 levees and dams and that sort of thing. We took all 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 of that out because that's really not dealing with 1
contaminated soils. This is all projects that deal 2
with soil that has some type of contamination.
3 And you know, at power plant sites, that 4
could be things like coal ash and a number of 5
different things, soils that maybe come out of an 6
industrial facility that have mercury or P.H.s or 7
P.C.B.s or something like that. At Vermont Yankee, 8
we're looking at a site that's, you know, likely going 9
to have more radiological contamination in the soil 10 than these other types of components.
11 In one of the pictures in the back corner 12 is a project that we did a couple of years ago at the 13 Hanford site where we removed two hundred and fifty 14 thousand tons of soil, radiologically contaminated 15 soil. And by comparison, we -- we think the, you 16 know, soil volume, as we currently are looking at it, 17 is about twenty-eight thousand tons at Vermont Yankee.
18 So a project roughly ten times the size of Vermont 19 Yankee in terms of remediating radiologically 20 contaminated soils.
21 MR. TWOMEY: All right. So I think we 22 covered this, but the -- but the milestones then are 23
-- we are -- we have requested that the NRC take 24 action on the license transfer amendment by the end of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 the year. I'll make the same disclaimer I made with 1
respect to the Public Service Board. We have no 2
ability to control the schedule at the NRC So we've 3
simply made the request. And we are hopeful that if 4
we have submitted all the proper material and they've 5
got the information that they need, that a decision 6
could be reached. But that's a hope and a target, not 7
a -- not a definitive date.
8 And the Public Service Board, I mentioned 9
March 2018 was the -- was the request. And the spent 10 fuel movement to the ISFSI, I'd say that's an element 11 over which we have much greater control. That's --
12 that's operational control on our side. The dry cask 13 campaign for 2017 should begin next week to move 14 twenty of the remaining forty-five casks. That would 15 leave twenty-five casks to be moved next year. If we 16 stay on schedule, we should be done by -- by the 17 fourth quarter.
18 And then if we receive approvals from the 19 NRC and the Public Service Board, and if those 20 approvals do not contain any conditions that are 21 unacceptable to the parties, we would hope to close 22 the transaction at the end of 2018.
23 And with that, I believe there's a short 24 video that the -- our expert driver over there is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 going to tee up and get moving.
1 (A video was played.)
2 MR. STATE: This is a project that we did 3
a couple of years ago. And it's basically an entire 4
city block in the middle of Los Angeles. And so you 5
can imagine the logistics, trying to get material out, 6
fifty thousand tons of concrete. And essentially, we 7
-- we removed this building one floor at a time, 8
taking the material from the top to the bottom, 9
putting it on transport vehicles, and taking it out of 10 the middle of the City of Los Angeles. And when we 11 got done, that's a site much like Vermont Yankee will 12 look like.
13 This project, we did about four or five 14 years ago. This is Launch Pad 39-B, which has some 15 historical significance. It's the launch pad that the 16 Challenger launched from. I'm not sure if it's the 17 last launch from that pad. This video doesn't really 18 give you necessarily a good idea of the scale of this 19 structure. It's -- it's incredibly large and there 20 were lot of constraints on this. We couldn't drop 21 material like this to the ground. The pad -- the 22 launch pad itself had to be retained and kept in good 23 order because they had a mobile launch structure they 24 were going to use on the pad after we finished.
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33 This just shows some of the specially 1
equipment we use that -- that we will be using here, 2
as well. And then this is a time lapse of the 3
structure over a period of a number of months as we 4
picked and peeled away all the pieces and -- and took 5
the entire structure apart.
6 This is a structure in the middle of Las 7
Vegas. Anybody that's been there would probably 8
recognize the facility. This -- this was a twenty-9 seven-story building that was constructed, never 10 opened, had structural defects, and had to be removed.
11 It sits right on Las Vegas Boulevard, so again a very 12 significant logistics challenge to get that much 13 concrete out on a busy corner, another successful job 14 about two years ago.
15 This is a project at an Ivy School. We do 16 a lot of work in the northeast, removing old 17 facilities at the -- the Ivy League schools and -- and 18 other facilities in the Boston area. And so this is 19 a project that we've -- I think we're still conducting 20 today, but it's some work I believe we did last year.
21 What you see there is the concrete and 22 rebar mesh that's -- that's generally mixed together.
23 This is a project that's larger than Vermont in every 24 respect. It's a powerplant in New York. And it's a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 project that we are just finishing up some of the 1
soils remediation at this point in time and receding.
2 But you can see this is a project that was done in the 3
city environment, and large boilers, so a lot of 4
metal, a lot of concrete, a very old structure, a lot 5
of contamination from the types of fuels used here.
6 And, you know, at the end of the day a site that --
7 that went off without a hitch. And, you know, 8
logistically probably or size-wise, the property is, 9
you know, similar size to Vermont Yankee, as well.
10 Those are stacks that are somewhat similar 11 to the Vermont Yankee stacks. Those are about three 12 days apiece using specialty equipment that we use the 13 stack removal.
14 So this is a New York Power Authority 15 plant that we did about a year and a half ago. We 16 finished a very large project. This plant actually 17 has a boiler. We believe it's the largest boiler that 18
-- that may have ever been constructed. Massive steel 19 structure to deal with in this -- this facility, and 20 a pretty -- pretty intense environment in terms of 21 working, essentially, in the City of New York, taking 22 this plant down.
23 We do take down a number of structures in 24 the middle of New York City. We removed the entire 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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35 St. Vincent's Hospital. We did all the renovation 1
work at Madison Square Garden. We did most of the 2
removal of Yankee Stadium. None of those projects are 3
depicted here. They're not particularly relevant to 4
Vermont Yankee. But we're accustomed to doing very 5
large projects in -- in complicated and difficult 6
places.
7 There's some key -- you know, key things 8
about this kind of project and about Vermont Yankee.
9 You know, we -- we do a lot of decontamination and 10 removal of environmental contaminants inside these 11 structures. When you peel off the outside of the 12 structure, then you're just removing structural 13 materials and steel in an environment that's been 14 decontaminated.
15 And this is another facility in Las Vegas 16 that we did last summer, a large multi-block structure 17 that we did on a very accelerated timeline. We 18 actually did this project in about nine months. It 19 was a Fastrac site. One of the things you don't see 20 here is this is a site that we actually imploded. And 21 I didn't want to have video of implosions because 22 we're not going to use implosions at Vermont Yankee.
23 I didn't want to give anybody the visual of the 24 massive cloud of dust that rises when you do that type 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 of thing.
1 We do have a photograph in the back, left 2
corner of a cooling tower at the Savannah River 3
nuclear site that we also took down by implosion. It 4
was a clean tower that our government had built for 5
about one hundred million dollars and never used. So 6
we imploded it and removed that a few years ago.
7 But, yeah, this is a site when you can do 8
implosion, it's a very fast way to take down 9
structures of this type. And you get the material to 10 the ground, you process the concrete out and the metal 11 out.
12 So of note, you know, we've stated a 13 number of times that we're a very safety conscious and 14 environmental regulatory compliant company and -- and 15 every project you saw there was operated in that type 16 of manner.
17 That's it.
18 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great. Thank you very 19 much.
20 Now, I want to introduce, or have them 21 introduce themselves, the representatives that have 22 come here from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
23 They're going to explain the process that they go 24 through in order to approve or not approve the license 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 transfer that Entergy and NorthStar are asking for.
1 And again, I want to thank you folks for 2
coming tonight. And I know we'll have some questions 3
and comments for you after your presentation. So 4
thank you.
5 MS. KOCK: My name's Andrea Kock. I'm the 6
Deputy Director of our Decommissioning Division in NRC 7
Headquarters from Rockville, Maryland. I also wanted 8
to thank Kate and her colleagues of the Panel for 9
inviting us here tonight, as well as the Vermont 10 delegation.
11 We do appreciate the opportunity to be 12 here and we are pleased to be here. And I mean that 13 sincerely because it is important for us to consider 14 your comments with regard to our regulatory processes.
15 It's important that we touch base with you and 16 consider those comments as part of our process. We do 17 very much appreciate the invitation this evening.
18 As Kate mentioned, the main purpose of us 19 being here tonight is to gather your comments with 20 regard to our review of the application we have before 21 us for transfer of the Vermont Yankee license to 22 NorthStar. And Kate also mentioned that we recently, 23 just this week, issued a federal notice asking for 24 comments on the application. So this is your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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38 opportunity to get your comments in early.
1 And I also wanted to mention that we're 2
transcribing your comments during the meeting tonight.
3 So if you have a comment you've made the comment at 4
the meeting, there isn't a need for you to submit an 5
additional comment on the docket to the NRC.
6 What we're going to do tonight is provide 7
you an overview, as Kate mentioned, of what we look at 8
when we look at a transfer application, our process, 9
and the criteria that we use. And I want to assure 10 you that that review will be independent and thorough.
11 As one of the cornerstones of the way the NRC operates 12 as an independent regulator, it's very important to us 13 as an organization and it's important to me as an 14 individual that that's the way we operate.
15 And part of us being independent and 16 thorough is getting out in the community to hear from 17 you, but also getting out to the sites that we 18 regulate. And in that vein, we did visit the Vermont 19 Yankee site today to get a sense of what's going on 20 there from a decommissioning perspective. And I think 21 that helps us to put our own eyes on the site and 22 gather our own thoughts so that we make sure we are 23 being independent, as well as having a good 24 understanding of what's going on, on the ground.
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39 I'll just take a minute here to introduce 1
the NRC staff that are going to present this evening.
2 First, we're going to hear from Bruce Watson. He's 3
our Chief of the Reactor Decommissioning Branch. He 4
has extensive experience in decommissioning and he's 5
going to go over for you just an overview of the 6
decommissioning process and our process for review of 7
the transfer application.
8 And then we're going to hear from Jack 9
Parrott, here to my left. He's our project manager 10 for the Vermont Yankee site. He's going to go into a 11 little bit more detail for you about the process we 12 follow and some of the considerations that we look at 13 in the transfer application.
14 And then lastly, we'll hear from Mike 15 Dusaniwskyj. He's an economist who works for the NRC.
16 He looks at all of the decommissioning funding reviews 17 that we do to make sure that plants have adequate 18 decommissioning funding to decommission.
19 I just also wanted to mention that we have 20 Ray Powell here. He's from our Philadelphia office in 21 the region. He's sitting here in the front row. If 22 you have questions about our oversight process, an 23 important thing that Bruce will touch on is that the 24 NRC's oversight doesn't stop when a plant goes into 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 decommissioning.
We do extensive inspections 1
periodically and Ray's group leads those inspections 2
from our regional office in Philadelphia.
3 And just one final note and then I'll turn 4
it over to Bruce. I did want to echo something that 5
Kate said. Our review is currently ongoing of the 6
application. So we haven't made any conclusions about 7
whether NorthStar is financially or technically 8
qualified to hold the license. We're still in the 9
initial stages of our review. So we won't be able to 10 give you any bottom-line conclusions about what we 11 think about this or that.
12 And I don't want you to take that as us 13 being standoffish or -- or hiding something. We're --
14 just we're not at that point of process. We can tell 15 you what we look at, the criteria that we go by, but 16 we haven't drawn any conclusions one way or the other 17 at this point in the review.
18 We can let you know where we are in the 19 process. We're happy to answer questions. We would 20 really appreciate your comments. And because we 21 haven't made any conclusions, some of our responses 22 may be just thank you for your comment because we 23 don't at this point have a conclusion. And I wanted 24 to make that clear.
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41 At this point, I'll turn it over to Bruce 1
Watson. And again, thank you for inviting us.
2 MR. WATSON: Well, thank you again for 3
having us come out tonight and for the invitation.
4 I want to give a real quick, brief 5
overview of -- of a few of the items before we get 6
into some of the more detail from the staff. On slide 7
one, I just remind everybody that the NRC role in 8
decommissioning is to ensure that the facility or site 9
is removed from service, and that the radiological 10 conditions will meet the license -- criteria for 11 license termination.
12 And we have two conditions in which that 13 license can be terminated, under unrestricted use or 14 restricted use. To date, all decommissioning sites in 15 the United States, including the ten power reactors 16 that had been completed decommissioning and had their 17 licenses terminated, have been released for 18 unrestricted use, meaning the owner can use the 19 property for whatever purpose they have intended to do 20 in the future.
21 And for this particular site, I believe 22 both Entergy and NorthStar will be -- have the 23 criteria that they're going to release the site, 24 terminate the license for unrestricted release.
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42 Also, I want to point out that once the 1
license is terminated, or in parallel with the license 2
terminations process, the actual restoration of the 3
site is up to the owner and the state and its 4
stakeholders. So once the radioactive material's 5
removed, they're free to do whatever they choose to do 6
for the site.
7 Can we go to the next slide, please?
8 In April 2017, a revised P.S.D.A.R., post-9 shutdown activities -- post-shutdown decommissioning 10 activities report, was submitted to the NRC by 11 NorthStar. It is contingent on the sale and license 12 transfer.
13 One of the key features of this P.S.D.A.R.
14 is that NorthStar plans to complete the 15 decommissioning by as early as 2016. We will review 16 the -- excuse me -- 2026. Excuse me. And we will 17 review the P.S.D.A.R. with the same rigor that we 18 reviewed the -- the Entergy P.S.D.A.R. that was 19 submitted in 2014. And two of the -- one of the 20 guidance documents that you may be familiar with is 21 Reg Guide 1.185. It's available on our public 22 website.
23 And of course, we've issued the Federal 24 Register notice and we will accept -- be accepting 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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43 comments on both the license transfer and the 1
P.S.D.A.R. And this will end on June 23rd, 2017.
2 And with that, I'll turn it over to Jack 3
Parrott to talk about the license transfer process.
4 MR. PARROTT: Okay. If we could go to the 5
next slide, please.
6 So reactor decommissioning license 7
transfers, they are a relatively common occurrence.
8 The license for Vermont Yankee, which previously 9
transferred to Entergy in 2002. NRC has regulations 10 in place to ensure that reactor licenses are 11 transferred to a technically and financially viable 12 company. Transfers of licenses to facilitate the 13 decommissioning of reactors have occurred twice before 14 for the Zion and La Crosse plants.
15 Next slide, please.
16 Our review process, the application for 17 license transfer was submitted in February -- on 18 February 9th, 2017. The license transfer documents 19 are available on our public website on the U.R.L. on 20 the slide there. Acceptance review was documented --
21 our acceptance review of the -- of the license 22 application was documented by letter dated April 6th, 23 2017.
24 Our acceptance review looked to see that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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44 the technical and financial re -- review topics are 1
covered. But nevertheless, there still could be a 2
request for additional information from our subsequent 3
review.
4 The notice of consideration was published 5
in the Federal Register yesterday. It includes an 6
opportunity for hearing and an opportunity for public 7
comment. The opportunity for hearing and intervention 8
is open to any person whose interest may be affected 9
by NRC action on this application. The opportunity 10 remains open twenty days after the notice of 11 consideration that was published yesterday.
12 The -- the opportunity for public comment 13 is a thirty-day period where written comments can be 14 submitted for consideration by the staff during the 15 review -- our review process.
16 As Andrea mentioned, our technical and 17 financial review is underway. If found acceptable, a 18 safety evaluation report, an order, and a license 19 amendment will be issued by the NRC.
20 Next -- next slide, please.
21 The -- the two things that we review, 22 primary areas are the technical qualifications and 23 financial qualifications. The technical qualification 24 review areas focus on the management, the technical 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 support, and onsite organization to ensure that they 1
are involved in, informed of, and dedicated to the 2
safe operation of the plant, and to determine if 3
sufficient qualified technical resources will be 4
provided for safe operations.
5 All requirements -- this is an important 6
point. All of the requirements of the current plant 7
operator and owner at the time of transfer, should --
8 should the transfer be approved, will be -- will 9
transfer to the new -- the new company, NorthStar.
10 Implementation of those requirements is the key and 11 will be under the continued oversight of NRC.
12 At this point, I'd like to turn over to 13 Mike Dusaniwskyj to talk about the financial 14 qualification review.
15 MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Good evening. The 16 financial qualification review in this particular 17 license transfer is going to be focusing on 18 decommissioning funding assurance, foreign ownership 19 control or domination, and the price and its indemnity 20 and nuclear insurance. In this regard, staff will 21 seek reasonable assurance that the licensee maintains 22 adequate funding to complete decommissioning to NRC 23 standards and terminate the license and adequate 24 financial protection remains available on-site and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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46 off-site commensurate with the risk of the 1
decommissioning plant.
2 Next slide.
3 The NRC maintains a
comprehensive 4
regulatory -- regulation-based framework to provide 5
assurance that the new licensee for a license transfer 6
maintains the financial means to safely decommission 7
the facility and terminate the license. This 8
framework includes consideration for spent fuel 9
management and ISFSI decommissioning. ISFSI stands 10 for independent state -- I'm sorry; I've forgotten 11 again.
12 MR. PARROTT: Independent Spent Fuel 13 Storage Installation.
14 MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Thank you.
15 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Also known as the dry 16 cask storage pad for us civilians.
17 MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Yes.
18 Through our operations, licensees are 19 required to certify that adequate funding for 20 decommissioning will be available when needed. For a 21 plant that is transitioned to decommissioning, the 22 same requirements apply and licensees provide evidence 23 of adequate -- adequate funding through annual reports 24 submitted to the NRC. These reports separately 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 provide transparency in the license -- in the 1
license's use of decommissioning trust funds, the 2
estimated costs for -- to complete decommissioning and 3
management of spent fuel, available funding to cover 4
these costs and any material changes to the trust 5
agreements or other allowable funding mechanisms. For 6
a license transfer, these responsibilities are 7
incumbent on the new licensee.
8 Next slide, please.
9 And as -- as a summary of this, the NRC 10 regulations require licensees to maintain adequate 11 financial assurance for decommissioning at all times.
12 Oversight of financial assurance continues until a 13 license is terminated. Licensees submit a financial 14 assurance status reports annually. The report 15 includes amounts spent on decommissioning remaining 16 for trust fund balance and estimated cost to complete 17 decommissioning. The report is reviewed for a 18 reasonable assurance of the adequacy of 19 decommissioning funding.
20 And with that, I'll hand it over now to 21 Bruce.
22 MR. WATSON: Thank you, Mike.
23 I thought I'd conclude our -- our 24 presentation with a brief discussion on our inspection 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 program. And I want to be clear that our inspection 1
program continues to ensure the safe decommissioning 2
of the site until the license is terminated. We have 3
a dedicated inspection manual chapter for power 4
reactor decommissioning. It's available on our 5
website. It's I.M.C., or Inspection Manual Chapter, 6
2561. It contains core inspection procedures that 7
have to be done every year and a variety of 8
discretionary inspection procedures which are done 9
commensurate with the work that is being performed.
10 Our inspection frequency and the amount of 11 time we spend in the inspection process will be 12 commensurate with the amount of activities on-site.
13 So we will be coordinating closely with the licensee 14 performing the decommissioning activities. So they'll 15 see us a lot when there's a lot of activities going 16 on. And they won't -- won't see us as often if 17 there's no activities or very little activities going 18 on.
19 We are required to conduct the inspection 20
-- inspection procedures annually. And these 21 inspection -- our inspection reports are publicly 22 available unless they can turn -- contain information 23 that's specific to security or safeguards.
24 So with that, I'd like to close our 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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49 discussion. I want to thank you for your -- for 1
listening. And we look forward to your comments.
2 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great; thank you very 3
much.
4 What we're going to do now is take a very 5
short period of time to have the Panel ask questions 6
and comments. And I'm going to tell everybody right 7
now not everyone is going to get to ask a question or 8
make a comment. And what I would ask is, because our 9
time is so limited, that we keep them to, you know, 10 one or two minutes because we want to have enough time 11 for anyone and everyone in the public who wants to 12 make a comment or ask a question to do so.
13 And I'm going to -- because I have the 14 mic, I'm going to ask the first question, which I know 15 is one that has come up with the public and members of 16 the Panel. And it's a question, I think, for the NRC, 17 NorthStar, and Entergy, if you all would like to 18 answer it.
19 As the NRC just outlined, one of the main 20 points that you're going to look at is the financial 21 assurance that NorthStar gives you that they -- that 22 they can complete the decommissioning within the 23 amount of money they say they are. And one of the big 24 questions that has come up is if the decommissioning 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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50 is not completed and the money and the nuclear 1
decommissioning trust fund runs
- out, who is 2
responsible for paying for the -- the shortfall?
3 And one of the issues, I think, that comes 4
up around this is, since Vermont Yankee is a merchant 5
plant, which means it's not getting any money from 6
ratepayers, there's no ratepayers to go back to -- to 7
get the money. So I guess our question really is who 8
-- and we -- we know we've heard that there won't run 9
out of money, but there's concern here that there will 10
-- there could be a shortfall of funds.
11 So we'd like to know who picks -- who's on 12 the hook for the money?
13 MS. KOCK: I keep forgetting to turn that 14 on. I can start out and then turn it over to some of 15 our experts. And then, I think, Kate, as you pointed 16 out, I think NorthStar would have a piece of this, 17 too. So Scott will probably want to jump in there.
18 But as far as the NRC is concerned --.
19 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Hey, Andrea. I'm sorry; 20 can I -- everyone has to speak up a little because of 21 the rain.
22 MS. KOCK: It's raining. Okay. I'll 23 speak up.
24 As I said, I can -- I can start out and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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51 then turn it over to some of our experts. And I think 1
part of this can be answered by North -- NorthStar, as 2
well.
3 From the NRC's perspective, the 4
responsibility for funding is with the licensee. It's 5
very clear and very straightforward. So for all 6
regulatory activities, we look to the licensee they 7
are responsible. So if the license is transferred to 8
NorthStar, they're responsible for the funding. And 9
if there's a shortage, they're responsible for making 10 up that shortage.
11 Our regulations require that they have 12 decommissioning financial assurance at all times. As 13 Mike laid out, we look at the transfer application 14 from the beginning to make sure there's adequate 15 funds. But going forward, our regulations simply 16 state that you have to have adequate funding at all 17 times. And if there is a gap or shortage, they're 18 required to make that up. And the responsibility for 19 that would be NorthStar.
20 As far as how they would make that up. I 21 think that's the piece that NorthStar could help you 22 understand what provisions or where they would look or 23 their contingency plan is for that. We simply set the 24 regulation to say they have to make that funding up.
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52 I'll just add a few more points and then 1
turn it over to others to add on. As far as, you 2
know, what assurances do we have for decommissioning 3
financial assurance -- and I think we've touched on a 4
lot of these already. As Mike mentioned, we have 5
ongoing oversight through decommissioning. So 6
annually, we look at how much is left in the fund, 7
what's their estimate for how much it's going to cost 8
to complete the decommissioning, and then we look to 9
see if there's any gap. So it's not as if we look at 10 it once when the application -- when the transfer 11 occurs and then not again.
12 We also do a thorough review at the 13 beginning, as we mentioned, and then we do our annual 14 reviews. The only other thing that I would add is --
15 I think Bruce mentioned this well. We have had ten 16 power reactors go into decommissioning and have their 17 licenses terminated. In all cases, that's been done 18 safely and funding has been made available. Either 19 the fund was adequate from the beginning or if there 20 were shortages during the decommissioning period, 21 those funding shortages were made up.
22 And again, how -- how those can be made 23 up, there's a variety of ways. I'll turn it over to 24 NorthStar to answer how they would look at that. But 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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53 people could have contingency funds. They could have 1
parent company guarantees. There's a variety of ways 2
in which those funds could be made up. We don't 3
dictate how it be done, just that it would be done.
4 MR. STATE: I guess, I'll just add a few 5
comments about how NorthStar looks at this. So the --
6 you know, the front line of defense for us is we know 7
how much money is in the trust fund today. We can see 8
it. We can call the bank and they can tell us. And 9
at inception of this project, the way we've 10 established our -- our work and the way we pay 11 ourselves, we are limited to the amount of money we 12 take out of the trust account by performance of the 13 work.
14 So in our breakdown of this project, we've 15 got a little over nine hundred work elements. And if 16 we execute all nine hundreds of those work elements, 17 the site will be clean and it will be released for 18 unrestricted use.
19 So when we broke it down into those work 20 elements, we assigned a cost to each of them. We 21 added all that cost up and that cost had to be less 22 than or equal to the amount of money we had to work 23 with to do the decommissioning. So our first line of 24 defense is we simply don't take money out of the trust 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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54 fund unless we've actually executed the work that that 1
money is tied to.
2 And with that, you know, assurance that we 3
don't ever -- it's a performance-based assurance that 4
we don't ever take more money than work actually 5
performed, if you -- you know, if you track it all the 6
way through and we take out exactly the amount we say 7
we will for each of the work elements, and the work 8
element gets done, then we'll complete this project 9
within the amount of funding that we have. And the 10 certainty of us executing each of these work elements 11 for that cost is that we will provide a form of surety 12 or guarantee for performance of each of those work 13 elements as we do them.
14 So you know, that's what we view as the 15 most important way to do a project like this. And 16 it's, frankly, the way we do every project the company 17 conducts, nationwide, every day. We work as a fixed 18 price contractor, doing work like this all the time.
19 And we worked to budgets on individual work elements.
20 Now, in the event that -- that somehow 21 there's a bust, and that doesn't work out, we've also 22 committed one-hundred-twenty-five-million-dollar 23 performance assurance above and beyond the amount of 24 money that's in the trust fund. And that will be a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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55 guarantee by the company.
1 As we conduct this work, we actually will 2
be taking a percentage of all the funds that we remove 3
from the trust account and putting them into an 4
escrow. And that's a cash first line of defense to 5
support the -- the -- any needed cash obligations that 6
might be above and beyond the nuclear decommissioning 7
trust. So you know, it's kind of a two-step process.
8 It's a process of limiting cost and then a process of 9
making additional financial capability available above 10 and beyond the funds that we know are present today.
11 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
12 Bill?
13 MR. JORDAN: Yes; thank you. This is, 14 likewise, likely to be answered by the Panel, NRC, 15 Entergy, and NorthStar, and really dovetails to Kate's 16 question and also to my sincere pleasure to hear that 17 the site could be available to this community for 18 other uses much sooner than originally planned. And 19 I hope that that does come to pass.
20 An -- an obstacle to that, in my mind, is 21 represented at the Connecticut Yankee facility, Yankee 22 Rowe facility, and the Maine Yankee facility where 23 there are many more acres of land, and yet, the ISFSI 24 remains and no development has occurred on any of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 those three plots of land.
1 So my question is does the NRC have any 2
practical limitations with a site of about one hundred 3
twenty to a hundred thirty acres, some of which is 4
going to be taken up by the electric infrastructure of 5
the switch yard and also by the ISFSI, of having 6
another -- some other development on the remaining 7
plot of land that was released for unrestricted use.
8 And two, does NorthStar feel confident 9
that, unlike the other owners of plants around New 10 England, they will be able to find a means by which 11 that land can be put back to productive use?
12 MR. WATSON: Yeah, this is Bruce Watson.
13 I -- I think that the plants that have been 14 decommissioned -- as I said, that they all have been 15 decommissioned for unrestricted use. So it's really 16 up to the owner what they want to do. About a third 17 of them had additional generation facilities placed on 18 them, built on them, and -- and back into generating 19 power because they do have the grid infrastructure 20 there, they do have a source of cooling water, and 21 they previously had an environmental impact statement 22 for an operating nuclear power plant. So about one-23 third add generating capacity to the site.
24 One-third have chosen not to do anything 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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57 with the site, which would include Connecticut Yankee 1
and a few others. At Maine Yankee, they've chosen to 2
make part of the land a park. I think they donated 3
part of the land to a nonprofit organization, I think 4
dedicated to naturalization of the -- of the land. So 5
it's an -- it's a mixed bag on what happens with the 6
property once the license is terminated.
7 Granted, the dry storage facility is 8
there. It is still under a license. We have strict 9
requirements for that security of that facility. So 10 yes, some of the land is taken up for that particular 11 purpose. But from the NRC's view is that the 12 remaining lands that are not required to be under the 13 license are available for any -- any -- any 14 development or unrestricted use that the owner would 15 have for that.
16 So I hope I answered that part of the 17 question.
18 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yes? Wait one second 19 because we're going to let somebody --.
20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Counting our 21 chickens here --?
22 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Well, wait one second.
23 We got to -- we've got to get the full answer here.
24 MR. STATE: So you know, the owners of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 three facilities you mentioned, I've been -- I haven't 1
been to Connecticut Yankee site. I've been to Yankee 2
Rowe. I've been to Maine Yankee. You know, those are 3
somewhat remote locations, somewhat remote sites.
4 And, you know, the ownership structure there is you 5
still have utility owners or cooperatives, in essence, 6
multiple parties that own those sites. And I think, 7
as a result, you know, they're people that operate or 8
-- or there are cooperatives that were formed to 9
operate these plants. I'm not sure that any one of 10 those individual utilities has any specific desire to 11 do anything with those sites.
12 We're commercially a very different setup.
13 You know, we are not interested in being the long-term 14 owner and developer of the site after it's clean.
15 What we're interested in doing is working with the 16 local community to find the highest and best use of 17 the property.
18 We've heard suggestions of, you know, 19 potentially looking at a micro-grid. That could be a 20 great idea. We've suggested a solar facility might be 21 an option there. But we're not wedded to any specific 22 future use, but we are wedded to finding a future use.
23 And -- and we will be, I would say, very easy to work 24 with in terms of positioning the property for its best 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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59 potential.
1 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great. Thank you.
2 Does anyone on this side --?
3 SENATOR MACDONALD: I'm surprised we would 4
be using this time to discuss what to do with a site 5
that may or may not be cleaned up. And that is 6
premature. I've been doing this job long enough to 7
have been to this point, several times, with the NRC.
8 And on the original sale of Vermont Yankee to Entergy, 9
we were given assurances by the NRC that the 10 decommissioning fund was adequate, that the new 11 operation would provide benefits to the state of 12 Vermont, there would be additional revenues to put 13 into the cleanup.
14 And what happened was, at Vermont, the 15 owners shipped all the profits out of state and left 16 the decommissioning fund inadequate enough so that 17 tonight we're here discussing how to clean the place 18 up.
19 The second time we arrived at this point 20 was when the owners of the plant came in and asked to 21 do an up-rate. And your advisory Panel that preceded 22 this one recommended in a vote not to do the up-rate 23 because the decommissioning fund was inadequate 24 because the NRC assured us that there would be a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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60 depository for nuclear waste available if we did an --
1 an up-rate. And your Nuclear Advisory Panel said that 2
that would not happen.
3 And the NRC gave us assurances that there 4
would be a place to send the waste, and despite the 5
recommendation that the assurances were not worth --
6 the assurances failed to materialize, no additional 7
funds were required from the owners to be put into 8
decommissioning to cover the additional waste. That 9
was the second time we were here.
10 The third time, Madam Chair, we arrived at 11 this position was when the owners asked for a license 12 extension. And the owners had made a commitment to 13 the State of Vermont to the Legislature, a handshake 14 and a widely understood agreement that the owners 15 would not ask to extend the license without the 16 permission of the State and the Legislature. And when 17 the owners didn't get permission, the owners went to 18 court to undo the bargain that they had offered.
19 And each time, the owners had slide shows 20 like the one we had tonight, had pictures in the back 21 of the room, and touted their expertise, their 22 professionalism, their ability to deliver on promises.
23 And the Chair has asked what happens if a 24 company like NorthStar, a relatively new company with 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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61 no deep pockets, sold the plant and fails to complete 1
the cleanup, who is left holding the bag. And, Madam 2
Chair, the reason I asked that question was when an 3
up-rate was being discussed and your VSNAP panel said 4
don't do the up-rate unless the NRC can tell us what 5
will happen and who will pay and who will be left 6
holding the bag if there is no National Nuclear 7
Depository.
8 And those that make these decisions were 9
persuaded to accept the assurance of the NRC and to 10 trust the owners that things would turn out all right.
11 And we are here today because of -- this 12 is about the fourth time that I have served where 13 we're given a slideshow, promises, guarantees that 14 these people are more clever, better accountants, and 15 more responsible than their predecessors. And they're 16 asking us to sign off on a recommendation.
17 But if this doesn't work, the answer is 18 the NRC doesn't have a rule for who will be 19 responsible. The rule is the people who would be 20 responsible are the people that have no money. Madam 21 Chair, I say that because when -- when, in the past, 22 the NRC told us that there will be a nuclear 23 depository available for the waste by a certain year, 24 and we said we don't believe you, and they said that's 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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62 our rule, there must be, you're not going to get left 1
holding the bag. And when it became clear that there 2
was no nuclear depository available, they, the NRC, 3
changed its rule.
4 CHAIR O'CONNOR: I don't want to cut you 5
off, but --.
6 SENATOR MACDONALD: You would like to talk 7
about what we're going to do with this plant after 8
it's been cleaned up?
9 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yeah.
10 SENATOR MACDONALD: Instead of what is the 11 guarantee that we're going to be -- this is going to 12 be cleaned up and that the NRC, who writes the rules 13 we have to obey, writes a rule for this other than 14 that the people that have no money are responsible.
15 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
16 I mean I -- I don't know if there's --
17 you've -- you answered the question when I asked about 18 who's on the hook. I don't know if you want to add 19 anything?
20 MS. KOCK: No, I didn't want to add 21 anything. I just wanted to clarify one thing 22 unrelated to the funding issue, which is that the NRC 23 doesn't -- does not set the policy for when and where 24 there will be a national depository. We're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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63 responsible for reviewing any application we might get 1
for a repository, making sure that it's safe, and 2
issuing a license if we think it's appropriate. But 3
we do not set the national policy on whether there 4
will be a repository, where it will be, or when it 5
will be. That is not something that's within our 6
control or authority. So I just wanted to make that 7
one clarification, but nothing else to add. Thank 8
you.
9 SENATOR MACDONALD: That's --.
10 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
11 SENATOR MACDONALD: That's true, Madam 12 Chair. But they assured us, while they don't set the 13 policy, that someone else did -- they assured us that 14 there would be a depository there. They gave us 15 their assurance. They don't make the policy, but they 16 gave us the assurance. And when it failed, they made 17 up a new set of rules to allow a hundred years for --
18 for getting rid of the waste.
19 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
20 Chris?
21 MR. CAMPANY: Chris Campany, Windham 22 Regional Commission. The Town of Vernon asked the 23 Windham Regional -- or had initial planning grant to 24 have the Windham Regional Commission prepare a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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64 resilience plan for what would happen when the plant 1
would eventually close. And this was back in 2012.
2 And I just want to see if you can add any 3
clarity of as far as when the site might be released 4
with the presence of the ISFSI there? On June 12th, 5
2012, I had a phone conversation with Ronald Bellamy, 6
Chief Reactor Project Branch of NRC, Region One. And 7
he said that as long as the ISFSI was there after 8
decommissioning, that it would be unlikely the site 9
would be able to be released for reuse. So that was 10 from -- I think -- I think he's retired now and he 11 can't be here to explain his logic.
12 But I just wondered what you might want to 13 add or what your position would -- might be now?
14 MR. WATSON: I can't comment on what the 15 conversation was with Mr. Bellamy, back then. But any 16 land that is taken off the license, with the exception 17 of the license property, which is the dry storage 18 facility, it will be -- I guess, should say is planned 19 to be released for unrestricted use, which means it 20 can be used for anything that the owner or the town or 21 whatever choose to do, whoever controls the property 22 rights to that piece of land.
23 Yes, the ISFSI will be there until the 24 Department of Energy removes the fuel. At that time, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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65 when the fuel's removed, the -- the actual facility 1
will be decommissioned. And then the entire piece of 2
property will be available for, I would believe at 3
that point, unrestricted use and for development for 4
whatever purpose the owners would have.
5 So, you know, I can't comment on the basis 6
of the conversation you had with him. But like I 7
said, at other facilities, the -- the remaining pieces 8
of land have been -- have been -- added generating 9
plants and -- and used for other purposes. And some 10 have chose not to use the property at all for -- just 11 letting it sit for right now so.
12 MR. CAMPANY: So I just -- so, Kate, can 13 I ask just a follow-up? So -- so, I guess what I'm --
14 so what's the -- like the security perimeter likely to 15 be around the ISFSI? I mean, how much of the site 16 would likely be available?
17 I'm asking you because -- one of the 18 reasons, when we went to Connecticut Yankee, one of 19 the reasons why they moved the spent fuel so far away 20 from the site was to facilitate redevelopment of that 21 site. And they did that at a considerable expense to 22 move that away. I thought that was -- and I thought 23 at Maine Yankee that was part of the reason, too, for 24 removing the spent fuel pretty far away, so they could 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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66 really -- and of course, those are much larger sites 1
and then V.Y. So what would you anticipate like this, 2
the perimeter might be around the ISFSI?
3 MR. WATSON: I really can't really answer 4
that because I -- we don't normally look into ISFSIs 5
too much. But I'm sure that there's a certain amount 6
of land that's required for the security plan around 7
it to be under the owner control to make sure that the 8
people who are providing security and for the facility 9
have adequate time to respond to any threats.
10 I can tell you that the facility at 11 Connecticut Yankee, the dry storage facility was 12 purposely moved up on the hill because the original 13 location had it down in a valley. And they thought 14 that was a -- not a wise decision for the actual 15 security of the facility, and that the better place 16 would be up on the hill so that it was on high land 17 for -- for security reasons.
18 So I hope that answers your question to 19 the best I can -- can do today.
20 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay. We'd have one more 21 Panel question. We'll let Jim Matteau.
22 MR. MATTEAU: Thank you.
23 It's actually, two questions, but they're 24 both very quick and I'll throw them both out there 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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67 together. The first one for NorthStar.
1 Not -- not knowing the details of the 2
commitment, I understand the -- the price per 3
component and everything, and that's -- that's 4
encouraging. I'm really optimistic about that. But 5
is there anywhere in there, if you encounter something 6
significant that you could make a clear case was 7
reasonably not foreseeable, is there any way for you 8
to go back and seek an increase allotment for that 9
component, which it seems to me would, in turn, 10 jeopardize -- could jeopardize the balance of the 11 trust fund?
12 And the second question for the NRC is, if 13 something like that were to happen or, for whatever 14 reason, it got to the point that there wasn't enough 15 money to complete the decom, would it be possible for 16 the owner to apply to go back -- excuse me -- to go 17 back into SAFSTOR? That's a one-word answer.
18 MR. STATE: So the -- the -- the first 19 issue you raised is if -- if -- I think you're saying 20 if we find an unknown source of contamination or 21 something. If -- if we simply execute poorly, we have 22 no recourse to anyone for anything. If, in fact, 23 during a certain specified period of time, we find 24 contamination that was undisclosed as part of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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68 transaction, we've got a level of indemnification from 1
the seller. That doesn't go on forever. That goes on 2
for a certain period of time.
3 So, you know, it behooves us early on in 4
this process to make sure we've got the best 5
characterization we can and determine if there's any 6
unknown contamination that -- that was not disclosed 7
to us.
8 If, in fact, we go through the process and 9
we find unknown contamination after a certain date, 10 it's our obligation to remove that. And we have to 11 remove that to, you know, achieve what the objective 12 here, which is unrestricted use of the site.
13 So, you know, we've done a lot of 14 facilities like this and we've got a pretty good idea 15 if there should be or would be certain types of 16 contamination. These are not hard things to find. We 17 know what the site was used for. We know, generally, 18 you know, what kinds of things were at the site.
19 I can tell you that large sites that had 20 large motor pools, a lot of times, are really bad 21 sites because, you know, back in the day you just 22 threw out the back door and now it's all over in the 23 groundwater.
24 We know there's been certain events at the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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69 site. We think those are pretty well documented. And 1
we will certainly do a high level of investigation 2
upon ownership to confirm all of that -- all of the 3
facts that -- that we've got. But, you know, 4
generally, we feel like there aren't any of those 5
really big gotchas out there. But if there are, we do 6
have a certain ability to protect ourselves, you know, 7
day one, for those types of things.
8 MR. SACHS: Uh --.
9 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Hey, Gary, we're trying 10 to do our meeting, so let the NRC -- there will be 11 public comment in a minute.
12 MR. SACHS: (Off mic) Can I --
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yes -- yes, please do.
14 Okay. Please go on, Bruce.
15 MR. WATSON: Obviously, the NRC's view of 16 the decommissioning is that the decommissioning has to 17 be completed in sixty years. So given the fact that 18 this is the business model that NorthStar is taking, 19 they're using to -- to actually take the sale of the 20 property, it's their risk they're taking in doing 21 their review of the site to ensure that they can meet 22 the commitments that they're telling us in the -- in 23 the documents in the -- in the financial information.
24 So for many, like previous license 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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70 transfers, we would have expected them to do their due 1
diligence to protect themselves, review the site 2
history, look at the characterization to ensure that 3
they -- they have a good assurance that they can clean 4
up the site within the funds.
5 Back in
- 2012, we strengthened our 6
decommissioning regulations. We actually call it the 7
Decommissioning Planning Rule. And it required that 8
the sites do additional groundwater monitoring close 9
to sites which could produce contamination into the 10 environment so it would be discovered early. I think 11 that enhanced the ability to prevent a lot of 12 underground soil contamination, which has been found 13 at a few of the sites that were previously 14 decommissioned.
15 So these -- these regulations enable the 16 owner or the operator at the time, the licensee, to 17 find contamination and make a determination whether 18 they need to clean it up now or later.
19 So the answer is yes, they could go into 20 a SAFSTOR situation, do -- for -- for whatever reason 21 they choose to. But as I think that's their choice.
22 But in this particular case, they're telling us 23 they're planning to the clean the site up from a 24 radiological standpoint by 2026.
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71 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay. We have one quick 1
follow-up. Then we have to move on.
2 MR. WALKE: Mr. State, I just want to 3
follow-up quickly on the point about you're going to 4
do your due diligence post-transfer. We've talked 5
about phase one complete before transfer of the 6
environments non-radiological environmental review.
7 As the state agency is responsible for the non-8 radiological piece, it -- it seems to me that the --
9 the that I have about the risk associated with the 10 transfer is related to why wouldn't we want to do that 11 diligence up front and know that information from the 12 phase two prior to transfer, so you know what the 13 gotchas are and we have come -- more comfort into the 14 financial resources?
15 MR. WATSON: I'd like to add one more 16 piece to -- to my previous comment, in that the NRC 17 regulations require that any incident or -- I'll call 18 it event that would result in information that would 19 be important in particular, radiological 20 information that would be important to the 21 decommissioning of the future of the site be recorded.
22 23 And so we do have a requirement that if 24 they had a spill or -- or a contamination that that'd 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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72 be well-documented in the record for the site history.
1 And so that's one area that could be looked at from a 2
radiological standpoint.
3 MR. TWOMEY: At -- at one level, there 4
have been numerous evaluations of the conditions on 5
that site. Certainly, the prior owners before Entergy 6
had an obligation to maintain their compliance with 7
all the NRC --
8 MR. SACHS: (Off mic) 9 MR. TWOMEY: -- all of the requirements 10 that they had to comply with for the NRC When we --
11 when Entergy bought the facility in 2002, we did a 12 comprehensive due diligence prior to that sale. And 13 then --
14 MR. SACHS: (Off mic) 15 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Hey, Gary.
16 MR. TWOMEY: -- we also did --
17 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Gary.
18 MR. TWOMEY: -- we also did a --
19 MR. SACHS: Could you speak up?
20 MR. TWOMEY: -- site assessment study in 21 2014.
22 MR. SACHS: Is there a reason you won't 23 speak up?
24 MR. TWOMEY: Is there a reason --
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73 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Could everybody --?
1 MR. TWOMEY: -- you're interrupting me?
2 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yeah, please don't 3
interrupt.
4 MR. SACHS: I can't hear you. There's 5
nothing to interrupt.
6 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) 7 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Well, we're going to let 8
him finish the question, so we can move on.
9 MR. SACHS: (Off mic) 10 MR. TWOMEY: We did a comprehensive site 11 assessment study in 2014. And then NorthStar's been 12 doing their own due diligence as we've been working on 13 this transaction.
14 And I'll let Scott speak to the level of 15 due diligence they've done.
16 MR. STATE: It -- it -- I don't want you 17 to misinterpret what I said before. It's not as if we 18 haven't done any due diligence or -- or done any level 19 of evaluation. I was speaking merely to, you know, 20 post-closing and opening of structures and doing a 21 very invasive testing that you wouldn't do prior to 22 closing of a transaction to, you know, get absolute 23 confirmation of what we believe to be true today.
24 But, you know, we've -- we are relying on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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74 past -- past practices and past evaluations and data 1
that's been generated from prior work on the site.
2 And you know, we will continue to do that kind of 3
work. We've continued to do due diligence. We are 4
initiating certain work activities, the second half of 5
this year and all next year, running up to the closing 6
of the transaction.
7 So we're not just sitting idly, hoping 8
there's nothing there. We are doing, you know, a 9
substantial amount of work to verify the condition of 10 the site at closing.
11 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
12 I think what we're going to do right now 13 is take a five-minute break. So at seven forty-five, 14 we're going to take public comment and questions. And 15 if you want to make a comment or ask a question, there 16 are signup sheets right over there. So in -- we'll 17 take five minutes.
18 (Off the record) 19 (The meeting resumed.)
20 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay. Now, what we're 21 going to do is take comments or questions from the 22 public. And I just want to remind everybody that the 23 NRC is here because it's the official public comment 24 period on the license transfer application that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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75 Entergy and NorthStar has filed. And that, of course, 1
is about the sale.
2 What I'm going to ask is when you come up, 3
if you could state your name and what town or state 4
and/or state you are from. It is being recorded by 5
the NRC. And as Andrea said earlier, you don't -- if 6
you speak tonight, you do not have to send written 7
comments to the NRC. But if you choose not to speak 8
tonight, there is a mechanism that you can go online 9
on the NRC website and either email a comment in or 10 you can do a written comment. And those comments are 11 due by June 23rd.
12 I also want to remind everyone that while 13 you may pose a question to the NRC, again I think 14 Andrea stressed this, is that they are still in the 15 process of reviewing the license transfer application.
16 So they may not have an answer for you because they 17 haven't finished the review.
18 I would also ask that if people can keep 19 their comments down to two or three minutes, we'd 20 appreciate it so we can move the meeting along. And 21 again, I want to remind everyone that this is a 22 meeting of the Nuclear Decommissioning Citizens 23 Advisory Panel. And we run by Robert's Rules of Order 24 and our charter and I just ask everyone to respect 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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76 that you are at a Panel meeting and respect all your 1
fellow commenters or people that are here this 2
evening.
3 And I'm going to call people's names in no 4
particular order, so I don't want anyone to think you 5
-- I'm playing favorites in any way. And what I'll do 6
is I'll, maybe, call two names at a time so the next 7
person knows that it's their -- their shot.
8 The first up is going to be Skyler Gould.
9 And then second is Brad Ferlin. And again, if you can 10 say your name and your town and state, so we have it 11 in the record. Yes?
12 MR. GOULD: All right. Thank you very 13 much.
14 CHAIR O'CONNOR: You may have to talk 15 louder than usual because of the rain on the --.
16 MR.
GOULD:
I'm Skyler Gould of 17 Brattleboro -- I'm Skyler Gould. I live in 18 Brattleboro these days. Thanks very much for allowing 19 us to come here tonight.
20 I have a couple of quick questions. Has 21 the NRC approved the new Holtec dry cask design which 22 would allow the earlier unloading of fuel beyond --
23 shorter than the usual five-year cooling off period?
24 CHAIR O'CONNOR: I think what I want to do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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77
-- I think what I want to do is have you ask all the 1
questions?
2 MR. GOULD: Okay.
3 CHAIR O'CONNOR: So you could ask all your 4
questions and then they can answer all at the same 5
time.
6 MR. GOULD: And another is -- is there 7
some reason the comment period has been reduced from 8
the normal sixty days to thirty days? Twenty or 9
thirty days, I'm not sure. I think I heard thirty 10 this evening.
11 A more difficult question. On March 29th, 12 just this year, a judge in the Court of Chancery, of 13 the state of Delaware -- I have the opinion -- found 14 that one of the two members of the NorthStar Group 15 Holdings, of which Scott State is the current C.E.O.
16
-- current corporate members, I'm quoting here, has 17 adequately alleged facts that, if true, demonstrate 18 fraudulent representation, unquote.
19 This is a charge by the other member of 20 NorthStar Group Holdings. So basically there are two 21 members of NorthStar Group Holdings. One is accusing 22 the other of fraud. Excuse me. NorthStar 23 Decommissioning Holdings, the limited liability 24 corporation incorporated -- incorporated last November 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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78 which is seeking to purchase Vermont Yankee from 1
Entergy is owned by NorthStar Group Services, which is 2
owned by L.V.I. parent corporation. which is owned by 3
NorthStar Group Holdings. which is at the heart of 4
this fraud case, they're seeking over two hundred and 5
thirteen million dollars in damages.
6 Essentially, Scott State and his -- his 7
member of the NorthStar Group Holdings are accused of 8
misrepresenting their corporate members' assets and 9
liabilities to the tune of two hundred and thirteen 10 million dollars. So my question to the NRC is do the 11 facts of this case --?
12 MR. SACHS: Did you know this?
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Gary --.
14 MR. GOULD: Gary, please, give me a break.
15 Do the facts of this case concern the 16 Commission and will the Commission fully consider this 17 above-mentioned suit and what it may say about the 18 integrity of the terms of the proposed sale?
19 And secondly, is the Commission confident 20 that should the plaintiff in the above case prevail, 21 which the judge in the case has concluded is enough of 22 a possibility to allow the case to go forward, will 23 the structural integrity of the NorthStar Enterprise 24 the larger NorthStar Enterprise allow the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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79 decommissioning of -- of Vermont Yankee to be 1
completed according to regulatory requirements? Thank 2
you.
3 MR. WATSON: Yes, I'll try and answer the 4
questions in order. First of all, the Holtec change, 5
I think that's still under technical review.
6 MR. GOULD: So is it conceivable, if 7
that's not approved, that that will delay --?
8 MR. WATSON: Well, it isn't approved yet, 9
nor is it denied. So it's still under review. Okay?
10 The requirement for a public period for a 11 license transfer is thirty days in the regulations.
12 So that's what's -- that what's published in the 13 Federal Registry so.
14 MR. GOULD: Excuse me. I understand. It 15 was never sixty days?
16 MR. WATSON: No; it's thirty days.
17 MR. GOULD: Excuse me. I see.
18 MR. WATSON: And in response to the -- I 19 guess, the lawsuit you're -- yeah, we have no real 20 comment on it. That is not part of our review. The 21 only comment I would have as a person that is an 22 accusation of -- of wrongdoing is not -- not an 23 assessment of guilt until the court decides it. So 24 it's not part of our review at all.
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80 MR. GOULD: Thank you.
1 CHAIR O'CONNOR: And I do want to say one 2
thing that we as a -- we as a Panel can request an 3
extension on public comment period if we needed to 4
because we've done that in the past. So that is an 5
option.
6 MR. FERLIN: Yeah. Good evening. My name 7
is Brad Ferlin. I live in Fairfax, Vermont, born in 8
Burlington, Vermont. I serve as President of the 9
Vermont Energy Partnership. I want to thank Kate for 10 hosting this meeting, and NDCAP. We appreciate that.
11 And we welcome the NRC.
12 We've testified before you a number of 13 times over the years and welcome you back to Vermont.
14 The Vermont Energy Partnership was formed 15 in 2005, largely through the foresight of Governor 16 Thomas Salmon. We're comprised of a diverse group of 17 business, labor, and community leaders. And over the 18 years, the Vermont Energy Partnership was a strong 19 advocate for Vermont Yankee as an economic engine, a 20 job provider for not only Windham County, but for the 21 State of Vermont, supplying low cost power. And we 22 were in support of that.
23 One of the things we heard over the years 24 in debate was if Vermont Yankee closed, that an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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81 accelerated decommissioning would be desired. And lo 1
and behold, with NorthStar here, this -- this promise 2
or this desire can actually be met. So -- and to make 3
the site available for future economic uses. So we 4
view this new opportunity of having Vermont Yankee 5
acquired by NorthStar and have them put in place this 6
accelerated and safe decommissioning process as great 7
news for Vermont.
8 We've had the opportunity to meet with 9
NorthStar officials on a number of occasions and hear 10 explanations of how they plan to operate in Vermont 11 and decommission Vermont Yankee. We appreciate the 12 fact that it's going to provide, in segments, jobs and 13 economic stimulus for -- for the region and for the 14 state.
15 And so for the NRC we hope that NorthStar 16 is properly vetted by this process in a fair, 17 reasonable, and timely manner -- timely manner, and 18 that a green light is given to the sale and it signals 19 to all an economic boost to Windham County and that 20 you can do business in Vermont.
21 So we thank you.
22 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great. Thank you very 23 much.
24 And I'm so sorry if I mispronounce 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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82 people's names. Meredith Angwin and then Robert 1
Stewart?
2 MS. ANGWIN: Hello; my name is Meredith 3
Angwin and I live in -- I live in Wilder, Vermont.
4 And I have blogged for many years at Yes Vermont 5
Yankee in case people are wondering what side of the 6
fence I'm on.
7 I would like to just make a comment about 8
the decommissioning. And that is that while the plant 9
was still running and Governor Shumlin -- at that 10 point he was governor, right -- was very much against 11 it. And he said, at one point in a press conference, 12 that if Vermont Yankee was decommissioned, it would be 13 a huge jobs bonus for this area. It would be fabulous 14 and it wouldn't actually lay people off because it 15 would take the plant a couple years to cool down and 16 people would still be employed. He -- the polite way 17 to describe this sort of thing is that he pulled this 18 stuff out of the air. That's the polite way.
19 At any rate, I was very interested in his 20 comments and I tried to figure out what actually 21 happened in decommissioning. And then during the 22 course of this, I interviewed a lot of people at three 23 Yankees, at Energy Solutions, I read articles from 24 EPRI. I read articles from all over the place. I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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83 used to work in the nuclear industry, so I can figure 1
some of these things out.
2 And what I found out was that a lot of the 3
data that I would've liked to find, but was really 4
very wrapped up in -- in the economics of the 5
different companies doing the decommissioning and was 6
proprietary. So the idea that this particular case, 7
there was proprietary economic data and that's so --
8 so shocking to some people, it's just standard. I 9
mean, I wish it wasn't -- sometimes it wasn't 10 standard.
11 For example, I would have -- I wanted to 12 know what percentage of the decommissioning money 13 actually went to truck drivers and to transport, as 14 opposed to people working on the site. This is 15 proprietary data. I was told that by everybody and I 16 think it's true and I think companies have a right to 17 proprietary data. I -- my -- my point isn't that we 18 should look more or look harder or look this or look 19 that.
20 My point is that decommissioning and many 21 other processes like this do have propriety economic 22 data. This is not the first time. As I say, I was 23 looking all over the country for this kind of data.
24 And it kept coming up proprietary because that's how 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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84 it's handled.
1 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great. Thank you.
2 I have Robert Stewart and then Patty 3
O'Donnell.
4 MR. STEWART: Yes, I'm Robert Stewart, 5
although I go by Jake. And I live in Brookfield, 6
Vermont. I'm a professional engineer and I've been 7
concerned about radioactivity ever since the plant 8
started operation.
9 And I'm particularly concerned now, among 10 other things, but about the rubblization. If that 11 becomes a possibility, I think that's a big mistake to 12 leave radioactive material on-site. Even if it's 13 diluted with other less radioactive material to dilute 14 it, I think it all should be removed.
15 The -- you know, diluting it is really not 16 a solution. And the radioactive isotopes will 17 migrate. They will get into the Connecticut River and 18 already are. And the -- they also will get into the 19 aquifer. They cannot be stopped. So I think the less 20 material that's radioactive on-site, the better. So 21 I hope that all of that material will be, as much as 22 possible, can be removed. Thank You.
23 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
24 We'll have, after Patty, Janet Rasmussen.
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85 MS. O'DONNELL: Good evening. Thank you 1
so much for coming here tonight and giving us the 2
opportunity to speak to you. As Kate said, my name is 3
Patty O'Donnell. I have -- I come from the Town of 4
Vernon and I have over twenty years of experience of 5
representing the Town of Vernon in one way or another.
6 I've served on the school board, the select board, and 7
I've been a state representative for twelve years.
8 And I have to say coming from Vernon is 9
not always an easy thing. It's not always easy to be 10 the town with the nuclear power plant, although we 11 have felt for years that we certainly helped the state 12 out and are reaching out in many, many ways.
13 Closing Vermont Yankee has been a very, 14 very difficult thing for my town. It's really hard 15 for a town of twenty-one hundred people to try to 16 figure out how do you go on. The most important 17 people in this whole process, in this whole 18 conversation, the ones who are going to benefit or 19 hurt the most by the decisions that are made here, is 20 the Town of Vernon. It's our community. We've 21 struggled through an awful lot and it's time to allow 22 us to go on to our future. And going on to that 23 future is decommissioning that plant.
24 As a legislator, I heard, for over twenty 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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86 years, we want that plant decommissioned, we want that 1
plant closed. Well, they got their way; the plant is 2
closed. Now, we want our way. We want a viable, 3
fair, honest looking into the proposal. If everything 4
works out well, we want the plant decommissioned as 5
fast as we can. You will hear after, peers of mine in 6
Vernon will tell you about our plans for the future 7
and how we've been working very hard in our planning 8
commission to reinvent ourselves, but nothing can be 9
done until the plant is gone.
10 We have already developed or started to 11 develop a relationship with -- with Scott. We had a 12 wonderful relationship with Vermont Yankee. I know we 13 will continue our relationship with NorthStar. And 14 they're already working with us. But please, give us 15 a chance for a future. We certainly have given our 16 state enough in the last forty-two years.
17 MS. RASMUSSEN: Janet Rasmussen, a 18 resident of Vernon and a member of the Vernon Planning 19 Commission. I think Patty said everything far more 20 elegantly than I could.
21 FROM THE AUDIENCE: No one can hear you, 22 ma'am.
23 MS. RASMUSSEN: I'm Janet Rasmussen. I'm 24 a resident of Vernon and also a member of the Planning 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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87 Commission. I think Patty O'Donnell said what I would 1
like to say a lot more elegantly than I could.
2 But what I really want to underscore is we 3
live in Vernon. We work in Vernon. Our economic 4
future is dependent on this plant being -- plant being 5
decommissioned as quickly as possible, but also as 6
safely as possible.
7 No one has a seat closer at the table than 8
we should, because we live there. We are -- the 9
Planning Commission has become intervenors in the 10 process. We are -- we will read everything that we 11 can. We have had permission from the select board to 12 hire experts, if we can, to help us through the 13 process.
14 We're encouraged about the process thus 15 far and we hope that we are allowed to have a fair 16 hearing. And please know no one wants this to happen 17 more than us, economically and safely. Thank you.
18 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
19 Howard Shaffer and then Madeline Arms?
20 And because it's raining, you do have to yell a little 21 bit louder into the microphone.
22 Howard's passing. So does Maddie want to 23 go next? And next up is going to be Lissa Weinmann.
24 MS. ARMS: Madeline Arms, Town of Vernon 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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88 resident and also member of the Planning Commission.
1 Thank you very, very much for coming here, and 2
listening to everyone, and taking all of our opinions 3
and our hopes and our dreams into your consideration.
4 I certainly would like to add my support 5
to what Patty and Janet have said. This has been a 6
topic of much discussion in the Planning Commission 7
and throughout the Town of Vernon. And I sincerely 8
believe that it will not be just the Town of Vernon 9
that benefits from this revitalization. It's going to 10 spread to the surrounding towns and to actually the 11 whole state of Vermont, as well. Thank you very much.
12 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
13 Lissa?
14 MS. WEINMANN: Hi; I'm Lissa Weinmann.
15 I'm a resident of Brattleboro and, again, I, too, 16 appreciate you coming here tonight to hear views from 17 our community.
18 I would say that in my view the Town of 19 Brattleboro is really the host town for the reactor.
20 Vernon is -- is the town where it is, but it's really 21 the Town of Brattleboro that -- that absorbs a lot of 22 the -- the emergency preparedness and other things 23 that have to do with the plant really emanate from 24 Brattleboro. So I would say that, in my view, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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89 Brattleboro is the town of record here, more than 1
Vernon.
2 But I have a couple of things I just want 3
to say, quickly, which is I think that in this process 4
really when there is a license transfer that a new 5
P.S.D.A.R. should be completed. I think it's a new 6
entity and really demands that a new P.S.D.A.R. be put 7
forth and not just a revised one.
8 I would also say that I have a lot of 9
issues with the cost of the decommissioning. Entergy 10 thought it was going to be one point two billion. Our 11 Public Service Department did an independent 12 assessment and they thought it would be along the 13 lines of two billion to -- to decommission the 14 reactor. So those numbers are so wildly different, 15 it's hard for the public to really reconcile what is 16 real here.
17 I know that the overhead is going to come 18 down and there's a lot of reasons why it's lower, but 19 that's a lot lower. And that calls into question the 20 credibility of the numbers in my mind.
21 I just want to say also that I do believe 22 that as long as the spent fuel is in the pool and the 23 whole process of moving the fuel to dry fuel storage 24 means that we should have an adequate level of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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90 emergency planning that the NRC has reduced. And I 1
understand that decision's been made, but I take issue 2
with that and I think it was a foolish decision.
3 I'd also like to -- to just on record say 4
that I think that allowing Entergy to use the 5
decommissioning fund in ways that it has put forth was 6
not also something that the community supported. And 7
I took issue with that, the NRC's decision with that 8
as well.
9 I would like -- I know that you have an 10 environmental impact study that was generically done 11 for this site but --.
12 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Lissa, I don't want to 13 rush you, but I'm going to rush you.
14 MS. WEINMANN: Okay. All right. Well, 15 two more points. One is that are any of the other 16 reactor sites have a school at the front door?
17 Because I think that the presence of school children 18 who we know children are much more susceptible to 19 radio -- radiation. I mean, they -- they absorb it 20 much differently than adults do. What are the 21 measures that are going to be taken for the very 22 unique circumstance that this plant is in, in having 23 a school at its doorstep? I don't think that's the 24 case with any other plants anywhere.
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91 And then finally, I would just say that I 1
am against the rubblization. It flies in the face of 2
what Entergy had agreed to do. And while it may be 3
acceptable for the NRC and Federal standards it's not 4
what Entergy had promised in -- in its agreement with 5
the state.
6 I still have a lot of other things, but 7
I'll put them in my written comments. And again, I 8
appreciate your review.
9 CHAIR O'CONNOR: All right. Thank you.
10 Next up is going to be Bill Sayre and then 11 Dan Jeffries.
12 MR. SAYRE: My name is Bill Sayre. I'm an 13 economist from Bristol. My family has a lumber 14 manufacture and as such -- is that better -- and as 15 such, I'm also representing Associated Industries of 16 Vermont, which is the trade association for Vermont 17 manufacturers. I want to thank you for making the 18 trip up to Vermont to hear what we have to say and 19 appreciate the opportunity to speak to you all.
20 I may take a different view. I will take 21 a different view than some who will speak to you 22 tonight. I want to start by expressing my -- my 23 association and my company's gratitude to Vermont 24 Yankee and Entergy Corporation for all the years of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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92 reliable, affordable, low-carbon energy that they 1
provided to the manufacturers of Vermont. We 2
appreciate it very greatly.
3 And we now appreciate the agreement that 4
they've reached with NorthStar to transition into a 5
decommissioning process that will be more rapid and 6
just as safe and just as high quality. We believe 7
this is good for Windham County and it's good for 8
Vermont. It secures the important safety and health 9
standards that we all want to see, keeps the economy 10 going, and gets the process completed in a more timely 11 fashion.
12 Thank you very much.
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
14 After Dan Jeffries, it will be Bob 15 Spencer.
16 MR. JEFFRIES: Good evening. Thank you 17 NRC for making the trip up here. We were kind of 18 joking that down in the NRC, somebody must have asked 19 for volunteers to come up to Vermont. But it looks 20 like they got some players. Appreciate your being 21 here.
22 I got a question. This is something I 23 probably knew at one time, but have forgotten, and 24 there's a reason for asking it. The question is who 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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93 owns these spent fuel, the dry casks, after the 1
decommissioning is complete? One of the reasons 2
that's on my mind is it seems to me that it would be 3
appropriate for the Republican Congress to pass a law 4
forcing the ownership of those dry casks onto the 5
Department of Energy.
6 The Federal Government said they would 7
take this spent fuel way back in the '60s when they 8
initially allowed the industry to start building the 9
nuclear power plant. So I think they should take it 10 by law and not leave that open to argument.
11 Number two question is -- is NorthStar 12 publicly held. And if so, how's business? And the 13 reason I ask that question is that I'm an Entergy 14 retiree and when I was looking at my retirement plans, 15 I was looking at how secure is this Entergy retirement 16 check I'm going to be getting. Entergy is a large 17 utility, down south. Regardless of what might have 18 happened with any of their nuclear power plants up 19 here, I always felt that they were a very secure 20 company and that my check was highly reliable.
21 If NorthStar is publicly traded and can 22 comment on their -- you know, how things are going 23 business-wise, I would expect that if they needed to 24 bring more money to the table for the next, you know, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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94 five years, past 2026, ten years past, if the cash 1
flow is there, I consider the finances secure.
2 May not do much for the stockholders if, 3
in fact, it's publicly -- publicly held, but if 4
they've got the cash flow, it should come to Vermont 5
Yankee if necessary.
6 And the other thing that's on my mind --
7 by the way, I forgot to comment, I'm a resident of 8
Brattleboro. So one thing I've noticed in all the 9
discussion is -- and I can't quite get a grip on it --
10 is what's so important about this one hundred acres 11 down here in Vernon. If you take a ride up and down 12 the river, there's a lot of undeveloped land up and 13 down the river. Why is this one hundred acres so 14 extremely important? It seems like this real estate's 15 value is extremely exaggerated in my mind. And to 16 that end, I'm comfortable with the four -- four-foot 17 reclamation. And I'm also comfortable with the 18 rubblization as proposed. Thank you.
19 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
20 Again, it's Bob Spencer and then Peggy 21 Farabaugh is next.
22 MR. SPENCER: Good evening and thank you 23 to the NRC. Bob Spencer, I'm Chair of the Vernon 24 Planning Economic Development Commission. We've heard 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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95 from three of our members already. We also have two 1
other members here, Jeff Dunkley and also Martin 2
Langeveld, who is on the Panel.
3 So we are the -- the board that's charged 4
with looking at future use of this site. And we 5
recently prepared an op-ed piece that was put into the 6
local papers. I was just going to hit a couple 7
highlights of that.
8 That basically what we're looking at is a 9
Reenergize Vernon campaign. We like the idea that 10 some of the other decommissioned sites have hosted 11 other -- energy generating facilities. We are looking 12 at such things as microgrid battery
- storage, 13 hydroelectric because of the existing TransCanada, now 14 ArcLight facility, possibly solar, and the spinoff 15 businesses such as cloud storage and other high energy 16 intensive using -- uses.
17 We'd also like to point out the over one-18 hundred-year history of Vernon in hosting energy 19 production, starting with the Vernon hydroelectric dam 20 in the early 1900s and then transitioning into the 21 nuclear power plant. So we feel we have a history and 22 a mission, sort of, to keep hosting this sort of 23 technology that benefits, really, three states and 24 hundreds of thousands of people.
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96 The -- this next chapter that we're 1
talking about, we're -- we're working through a number 2
of municipal planning projects with the Windham 3
Regional Commission to update our town plan to look at 4
hosting and facilitating development of such 5
facilities. We also are amending our plan to make it 6
-- give it something that the state has a new 7
regulation that would give us a substantial deference 8
in supporting or opposing energy facilities.
9 So we're doing a lot that we feel will 10 help facilitate redevelopment of this site. And we 11 really are -- as an intervenor, as Janet said, we'll 12 be commenting formally on this process and are 13 cautiously optimistic that this deal will happen.
14 So thank you everyone for your -- your 15 professional review and the due diligence from the 16 private entities, too.
17 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Great. Thank you.
18 After Peggy, it's going to be Betsy 19 Williams and then Josh Unruh.
20 MS. FARABAUGH: Thank you, Kate and Panel 21 for the opportunity to speak.
22 My name is Peggy Farabaugh. I'm from 23 Vernon. I have lived there for twenty years. My 24 husband was laid off from Entergy, so I'm coming from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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97 a point where a lot of people are -- in Vernon are 1
coming from. We've suffered a lot from the shutdown 2
of the plant. But the community has come together in 3
an amazing way to rebirth the town.
4 And I've heard a lot of opinions tonight 5
about how to do that, but none of them speak to me 6
about the difference between the environmental health 7
and safety of a plant that's six years versus sixty 8
years. So I'd just encourage you on behalf of the 9
folks who I know in Vernon to make it sooner than 10 later.
11 And in sixty years, all of us are going to 12 dead. Right? And so in six years, this is something 13 that could really help like my children and -- and the 14 children of other people from Vernon who are in this 15 room. So if there is no compelling safety 16 environment, health, or financial reasons, please help 17 us get this done in six years, instead of sixty.
18 Thank you.
19 CHAIR O'CONNOR: We have Betsy and then 20 Josh Unruh.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Okay. My thoughts are a 22 little bit scattered. I'll try to keep it focused.
23 We've had a long history of interacting 24 with various representatives from the NRC in the past.
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98 And as somebody said earlier, I commend -- I don't 1
know which raffle you won to come up here. They 2
haven't always been very pleasant interactions in the 3
past.
4 I think one thing that's different this 5
time is that in the past, we were debating the 6
continued operation of a plant and now what we're 7
talking about is how do we safely and efficiently and 8
cost effectively decommission it and decontaminate it.
9 We have a common goal. I think I've -- I 10 think -- I guess I don't know, but I would assume that 11 pretty much everybody in this room wants the same 12 thing, which is we want that site to be cleaned up and 13 cleaned up to the highest possible level it can, and 14 for that not to become a burden financially on anyone 15 other than the owners of this -- of the plant.
16 I think what we do debate is how we'll get 17 there and how we'll get there in a way that we all can 18 trust. Trust is a big issue here. We have lots and 19 lots of reasons not to trust this company, and lots 20 and lots of reasons not to trust the NRC, quite 21 frankly.
22 We're talking about the most dangerous 23 substance known to humankind that we are dealing with.
24 I can appreciate that NorthStar has deconstructed many 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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99 sites much larger and more involved than Vermont 1
Yankee. But most of them were not dealing with the 2
most dangerous substances known to humankind.
3 We're talking about many of those 4
substances leaving a legacy for up to a thousand 5
generations. A thousand generations. That's our 6
legacy. So what we do here in these next few years is 7
really, really, really important and it cannot be 8
taken lightly.
9 And I have been frustrated by decisions by 10 the NRC in the past. For example, I do not believe 11 that the Holtec decision, that that was the cask to 12 use on the site, was the best decision. I don't 13 believe that the NRC is committed to holding the --
14 whichever company is involved in this process -- to 15 the very highest possible standard known to humankind 16 today. That's what they should be held to. Not to 17 what -- the last time I was at the NRC hearing, I was 18 told by an NRC representative that the Holtec casks 19 were adequate. I'm not looking for adequate.
20 I don't think the people of Vernon or 21 Brattleboro or anywhere in this Tri-State region are 22 looking for adequate. They are looking for the 23 highest possible standard that we know of. And that's 24 what I would like the NRC to be looking for, as well.
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100 And I would like to feel assured that that is what the 1
NRC is going to be holding whichever company 2
accountable to.
3 It concerns me greatly, as it does many 4
others in this room, that my understanding and I --
5 I'm not completely sure of this, but my understanding 6
is that most, if not all, of the decommissionings that 7
have happened to date have had cost overruns. Almost 8
all of them, if not all of them. While it would be 9
wonderful if that did not happen here, I think that we 10 clearly have to have an absolutely assured plan of 11 what happens should that happen.
12 And a company that has gone belly up, 13 whether or not they're the owners, does not give me 14 assurance of then who's going to bear the burden of 15 this very dangerous legacy.
16 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Betsy --.
17 MS. WILLIAMS: And I'm about to wind up, 18 Kate.
19 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: So it also concerns me that 21 what we're talking about here are two things that I 22 think are in real competition with each other, which 23 is we're trying to keep things to a certain cost which 24 makes sense, but we're also trying to do it at the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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101 most -- the highest possible standard of safety that 1
we know of, which usually also translates to being a 2
more expensive process.
3 The better casks are more expensive. The 4
process for handling the materials in the most careful 5
way is more expensive. And those two things are in 6
direct opposition to each other. And that is the very 7
difficult path that we are navigating. Thank you.
8 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
9 Josh -- is Josh Unruh -- Josh Unruh and 10 then Haley Pero.
11 And I just want to remind people if you 12 could say your name and where you're from and keep 13 your comments to about two minutes, that would be much 14 appreciated.
15 MR. UNRUH: I can do that. I'm Josh 16 Unruh, Select Board Chair in Vernon. I'd like to 17 thank everybody for their time this evening.
18 To reiterate what has been said, there is 19 no one with a stronger stake in the sale in the site's 20 safe decommissioning than the Town of Vernon. I stand 21 in support of the sale of Vermont Yankee to NorthStar.
22 I've had the opportunity to meet with the NorthStar 23 Executives regarding their purchase and their 24 potential new partnership with the Town of Vernon.
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102 Through these conversations, my personal 1
questions and concerns have been put to rest. Among 2
many -- among many things over the last several months 3
we've heard, and we've also heard it tonight, is 4
concerns about the school across the street from 5
Vermont Yankee. The funny thing is that none of these 6
people have children at Vernon Elementary School. I 7
do. I have three little girls at Vernon Elementary 8
School.
9 I'm no scientist. I'm no demolition 10 expert. So I put my trust in the people that deal in 11 this industry day in and day out that will govern the 12 sale and demolition. That's the NRC and NorthStar.
13 To get this land back to a usable state safely is 14 paramount for Vernon and Southern Vermont for economic 15 development. To not allow this sale is further 16 cutting the Town of Vernon and Southern Vermont off at 17 its knees. Thank you.
18 CHAIR O'CONNOR: After Haley, we're going 19 to have Ann Darling and then Leo Schiff.
20 MS. PERO: Thank you for the opportunity 21 to say a few words. My name is Haley Pero and I work 22 in Senator Bernie Sanders' office. Tonight, I'm 23 joined by my colleagues, Tom Berry in Senator Leahy's 24 office, and George Twigg in Congressman Welch's 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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103 office.
1 On behalf of the delegation, we'd like to 2
thank the NRC for making the trip to Vermont to hear 3
directly from Vermonters. We think that's very 4
important. And we'd also like to thank the Panel for 5
making this meeting possible and also being a conduit 6
for public information.
7 The delegation has long believed that 8
public engagement is really critical to this process, 9
so it's terrific to see so many members of the public 10 here tonight.
11 As many of you may know, Bernie has 12 introduced legislation a few years ago to make sure 13 that local and state input is a meaningful and formal 14 part of the decommissioning process, particularly on 15 the P.S.D.A.R. Bernie will soon be reintroducing this 16 bill and including an opportunity for the public to 17 give input on license transfers, so then situations 18 like we find ourselves, the public will still have a 19 voice. Thank you.
20 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Haley. And 21 again, thanks to the Congressional delegation. They 22 were very helpful in getting the NRC to come here this 23 evening.
24 Ann?
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104 MS. DARLING: Hi; I'm Ann Darling. I live 1
in East Hampton, Massachusetts, which is down the 2
river. And -- but for until a few years ago, I was a 3
thirty-five-year resident of this area. And I 4
consider myself -- this is my home. So I guess, you 5
know, we're -- the Vermont Yankee site, it's in the 6
corner of
- Vermont, but it's right close to 7
Massachusetts and New Hampshire.
8 So the State has jurisdiction -- the State 9
of Vermont has jurisdiction over the non-radiological 10 aspects of decommissioning, the residents all over 11 this area of all different states, not just Vermont, 12 will kind of bear the brunt or the -- feel the impact 13 of the operation, the shutdown, the decommissioning, 14 all of that.
15 So my -- I'm asking the NRC what your 16 commitment is to communicating with all of these 17 parties and coordinating, particularly, with the State 18 of Vermont? But all of us, as moving forward, it's 19 kind of germane to what you were just saying. We have 20
-- these are our lives. So we want you to talk to us.
21 I did ask a question.
22 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yeah. Would you folks 23 like to respond?
24 MS.
KOCK:
I keep forgetting the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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105 microphone. So sorry. I'll try and -- and, Kate, 1
I'll try and be brief.
2 To answer your question about what our 3
commitment is on being transparent and communicating, 4
transparency is another one of the NRC's cornerstones.
5 I don't know how else to say it more clearly. I can 6
tell you as a -- the Deputy Director in the 7
decommissioning division, it's extremely important to 8
me as well. It's why we're here. It's why we have 9
four of us sitting up here today. And so you do have 10 our commitment. It is part of what's -- extremely 11 important to us. Everything we do should be 12 transparent.
13 And it is -- I don't know if nice is the 14 right way to put it, but it is nice and striking to me 15 to sit here and listen to concerns, questions, 16 comments, no matter what side of the issue that you're 17 on, but it's extremely important to me and I'm happy 18 to be here.
19 MS. DARLING. Thank you.
20 I just want to say that, like my friend 21 Betsy, many, many times we've sat with the NRC We 22 haven't -- some of us have not felt that -- that we 23 were more important than the industry -- the nuclear 24 industry. And so I -- you're going to run into that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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106 and we don't just want transparency. We want you to 1
really listen and take our opinions into 2
consideration. We want our -- what we say to have an 3
impact. And that means people of Vernon and everybody 4
else that lives here. We want to -- we want you to 5
listen and do something about what we think. Thank 6
you.
7 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Ann.
8 After Leo, it's going to be Guy Page and 9
then Bob Leach.
10 MR. SCHIFF: Hi there. My name's Leo 11 Schiff. I live in Brattleboro. And I really 12 appreciate the representatives of the NRC coming. I 13 understand that this might be your last trip ever to 14 Brattleboro. And because of that, I've got a question 15 for you that is a little bit tangential to the sale of 16 the property.
17 First, I want to locate myself as firmly 18 against nuclear weapons and nuclear power, and in 19 favor of long-term onsite stewardship of the dry casks 20 in Vernon. What I'd like to ask you is what makes you 21 so sure that it would be safe to transport the highest 22 level nuclear waste and other medium or low level 23 nuclear waste along our decaying rail lines and with 24 the possible threats of terrorism?
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107 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Do you have any other 1
questions, Leo?
2 MR. SCHIFF: No, but I'd love to get an 3
answer.
4 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay. Great. Thank you.
5 MR. WATSON: Your question is pertaining 6
to the safe transportation of radioactive materials.
7 I can assure you that it's done almost every day in 8
this country, whether it's in the commercial business 9
or in the Defense Department. There's strict 10 requirements on the condition of the rails, the roads, 11 et cetera, on which those materials would be 12 transported and and significant security 13 requirements, especially for the transportation of 14 spent fuel.
15 So I can tell you it's done safely and 16 frequently in this country all the time, may not ever 17
-- be every day. I've personally been involved in a 18 number of them. And the lengths that are taken for 19 the security in the routing and the safety of the 20 packages and the transportation are extensive. Thank 21 you.
22 MR. PAGE: Guy Page, Berlin, Vermont, 23 Vermont Energy Partnership. So welcome back to 24 Vermont. Last time you were here I think the room is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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108 about forty-five degrees, if I remember correctly.
1 And just so you know, tonight the last leaves at ten 2
with all the rain.
3 So anyway, as I think Mr. Twomey pointed 4
out, the decommissioning trust fund is five hundred 5
and seventy-two million. The expenses of the 6
NorthStar plan, as I understand it, about four hundred 7
and ninety-eight million. So that's about a seventy-8 four-million-dollar surplus. That's pretty good.
9 Additional cost overrun, risk mitigation, you've got 10 some guaranteed fixed payments and bonding. Team 11 performance bonds, team contractual commitments, and 12 one hundred and twenty-five million dollars support 13 agreement, basically an insurance policy.
14 And, you know, you guys are going to be 15 doing the deep dive on -- you know, on the -- the 16 ability of the company to -- to -- you know, have the 17 financial wherewithal on the technical skill and all 18 that. But service, that seems like that's a good 19 prudent plan.
20 The other thing is, you know, we've really 21 got to look at NorthStar's past and their future.
22 They -- they've decommissioned hundreds of power 23 facilities. You know, we've seen all these. And as 24 I've been Googling them, I haven't found any accounts 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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109 of, you know, oh, boy they really messed up this one.
1 I haven't found any those. Okay? It seems that 2
they've got a pretty good record. Extensive 3
experience in nuclear decommissioning.
4 And -- and really in terms of failing, the 5
questions were asked were what happens if you find 6
something you didn't think you're going to find, and 7
I thought Mr. State's answer was a good one. But 8
really you don't become a world leader by failing to 9
see and deal with the unforeseen. That's just a 10 characteristic of -- of a business successes. You 11 know how to deal with these things. So I -- my sense 12 is that that they do.
13 And -- and a big question I think you 14 really need to ask is, okay, what's the alternative.
15 The alternative is sixty years SAFSTOR. As Peggy 16 said, you know, we're all dead by the time this thing 17 is done.
18 So I -- I know you're going to do due 19 diligence on this. And I know the public service work 20 is going to do due diligence. And that's all very 21 good. That's all very necessary but I just hope the 22 take on this is we want to get to yes. Okay? Because 23 it's good for the community. It's even good for the 24 environment. And I just hope it gets done. Thank 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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110 you.
1 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Guy.
2 I just want to assure everybody if you 3
signed up to speak, you will get to speak. So don't 4
-- don't worry about that.
5 After Bob Leach, we're going to have Paul 6
Blanch.
7 MR. LEACH: Good evening -- evening. My 8
name is Bob Leach. I'm a Brattleboro resident and I 9
strongly support the transfer of the license and the 10 sale of Vermont Yankee to NorthStar.
11 I'm a Vermont Yankee retiree. For many 12 years, I was the R.P.M., Radiation Protection Manager.
13 I was also certified a reactor operator, a senior 14 reactor operator. I'm a plank owner. For those who 15 don't know the Navy terminology, it's anybody that was 16 there when they commissioned it. I was there when it 17 was still a hole in the ground.
18 I looked into NorthStar and the team 19 that's working on this project with NorthStar, W.S.C.
20 and Areva. Areva is an international company.
21 They've been building power plants -- nuclear power 22 plants around the world for as long as I can remember.
23 They're a very respectable company. They have an 24 outstanding reputation in the nuclear industry.
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111 Excuse me.
1 W.S.C. is an operator of the radioactive 2
waste disposal site down in Texas. Vermont Yankee --
3 or Vermont and Texas are the compact folks that 4
established that particular site. W.S.C.S. operates 5
that facility and they do it in a safe and 6
professional manner. It will be an extremely valuable 7
asset in the process of preparing, scheduling, and 8
shipping the huge amount of radioactive waste which is 9
going to be leaving Vermont Yankee.
10 NorthStar has reputation for 11 decommissioning non-nuclear power plants for years.
12 They were used as a major subcontractor in one of the 13 Midwest power plants. And everything I heard from 14 that, they've been doing an outstanding job.
15 They did operate and successfully 16 decontaminate a nuclear facility that was not a power 17 plant. They did some work of Vermont Yankee, 18 recently. It was potentially the removal of the north 19 warehouse. Some of you are aware of that building.
20 That was the first building at Vermont Yankee that 21 received any radioactive waste, radioactive material, 22 and it was used to store radioactive material right up 23 until it was -- was decommissioned.
24 They brought in a professional crew, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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112 relatively small crew. They brought in the right 1
equipment and they completed the job on schedule and 2
on budget. NorthStar and their partners are very 3
capable, knowledgeable, and they've got extensive 4
experience in this kind of job.
5 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Bob, I'm going to have to 6
move you along.
7 MR. LEACH: Okay.
8 CHAIR O'CONNOR: I won't gong you or 9
anything like that but.
10 MR. LEACH: Okay. Sorry.
11 Listen, we're just saying they've got the 12 expertise and the ability and I strongly support 13 giving them the chance to do it.
14 I would like to ask one question to the 15 NRC. I understand the State of Vermont is trying to 16 become or looking into becoming an agreement state.
17 I think I know the answer, but if they do become an 18 agreement state, would they -- I know that the NRC 19 regulates power plants, but decommissioning is 20 slightly different. And would Vermont be obligated in 21 any way if they become an agreement state? That's a 22 yes or no question.
23 MR. WATSON: The answer is no.
24 MR. LEACH: Thank you.
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113 MR. WATSON: Part 50 licenses are the 1
responsibility of the NRC to regulate.
2 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay. After Paul Blanch, 3
we're going to have Kyle Landis-Marinello and then 4
Clay Turnbull.
5 MR. BLANCH: Good evening. Thank you, 6
Members of the Panel and Madam Chairman.
7 My name is Paul Blanch. I reside in West 8
Hartford, Connecticut, about seventy miles south of 9
the plant. I'm a -- I'm going to cut my speech, in 10 the interest of time, a little bit short. But I have 11 passed out copies to members of the Panel and also to 12 Andrea of the NRC. So I'm going to cut out the major 13 part of it, as Mark MacDonald so eloquently described 14 my concerns.
15 I'm a professional engineer with more than 16 fifty years of nuclear safety experience and 17 regulatory experience. I've worked at Maine Yankee 18 during the decommissioning, at Connecticut Yankee 19 during the decommissioning, and I sat on a similar 20 panel overseeing the decommissioning of Millstone Unit 21 One. So I have quite a bit of experience in 22 regulatory issues and a limited amount of experience 23 in decommissioning.
24 But I was going through the regulations 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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114 and it was just briefly mentioned in one of the NRC 1
slides, but no one seems to have amplified on it --
2 and I have a couple extra copies. And that's 10 3
C.F.R. 50.75. So I would like the Panel to review 4
that. It has to do with financial stability of the 5
licensee and guarantee of -- decommissioning funds.
6 So following up from Mark's dialogue, I'd 7
like to make some recommendations to the Panel that 8
Vermont must consider the requirements of some type 9
of, quote, surety method insurance or other guaranteed 10 method, close quote, as required by 10 C.F.R. 50.75 as 11 a condition for transfer of the Vermont Yankee 12 license.
13 Vermont's attorneys and the Panel must 14 determine the amount of the surety bond required to 15 assure Vermont is financially protected. Typical 16 amounts for performance-type bonds are equal to the 17 fix contract amount. However, this particular job is 18 not a typical contract. Vermont's attorneys must 19 review the license transfer and regulations of 50.75 20 to assure the financial protection should NorthStar 21 fail to perform.
22 Vermont must oppose the license until it 23 is satisfied and it is protected from non-performance 24 or bankruptcy in accordance with the requirements of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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115 50.75.
1 A couple of statements were made by Scott 2
about indemnification. If there is indemnification or 3
bonding, certainly that kind of statement needs to be 4
in writing and checked out.
5 And the other thing that somewhat bothered 6
me by some of NorthStar's statements were the amount 7
of contamination they have removed from various sites.
8 And I don't disagree they have removed contamination, 9
but nuclear contamination is not the same as lead, 10 asbestos, P.C.B.s. It has its own characteristics.
11 And they need to have that expertise, that power plant 12 expertise on board to assure a safe decommissioning.
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Paul.
14 MR. BLANCH: Thank you very much.
15 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Kyle Landis-Marinello and 16 then Clay Turnbull.
17 MR. LANDIS-MARINELLO: I'm Kyle Landis-18 Marinello. I'm an Assistant Attorney General for the 19 State of Vermont. Our office is looking at this 20 transaction, closely. This is a matter that the 21 Attorney General was briefed on, on day one when he --
22 when he took office.
23 The Attorney General's office is 24 participating in the proceeding at the Public Service 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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116 Board, along with the Agency of Natural Resources and 1
the Public Service Department, and with some 2
consultation with the Department of Health, as well.
3 We plan to participate in the proceeding at the NRC, 4
along with all of those agencies.
5 Generally, we want this site cleaned up 6
quickly, and the transaction looks good for that 7
reason. But this transaction needs to be fully 8
vetted. We need to ensure, one, the site is going to 9
be fully cleaned up, and two, that the cost of that 10 cleanup do not fall on Vermonters.
11 A full vetting requires more information.
12 For instance, there's a line item in the new 13 decommissioning plan of two hundred twenty-three 14 million dollars for decontamination and dismantlement.
15 That's very different from the line-by-line breakdown 16 that was provided in the original decommissioning cost 17 estimate.
18 A second example, the spent fuel costs for 19 this transfer assume that the Department of Energy 20 will pick up all of the fuel by 2052. There's no 21 guarantee that will happen. If it doesn't happen, 22 there could be massive costs, particularly if we reach 23 the one-hundred-year mark where dry casks would 24 possibly need to be repackaged. And even if the pick-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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117 up occurs by 2052, there's a chance that the 1
Department of Energy is going to require different 2
casks for transportation.
3 These type of costs need to be looked at 4
and there needs to be an answer of where those costs 5
would come from. So there is more information needed 6
to fully vet this transaction.
7 It was encouraging to hear that the NRC 8
still has the availability of request for additional 9
information and we would support the NRC availing 10 itself of that to provide more information to itself 11 and to the public about how this transaction will do 12 what everyone wants it to do and get the site cleaned 13 up quickly.
14 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Kyle.
15 We're going to have Clay Turnbull. And 16 then after Clay, we're going to have Gary Sachs.
17 MR. TURNBULL: Hi. Good evening. Thanks 18 for coming up to Vermont. So it's -- this is a warm 19 welcome. Yeah.
20 I hope, in -- in not too many years, you 21 folks at NRC are going to be able to, if -- almost 22 brag that you were up at this meeting in Vermont 23 because the decommissioning turned out so successful 24 in Vermont that it's -- it's like -- it's what people 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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118 talk about and you'll be able to say yeah, we were 1
there early in that process.
2 In a -- in a complex project like this, to 3
be successful, it is essential to know what the goal 4
is. And in this case, that -- that is like what will 5
the site look like post-decommissioning. And I -- oh, 6
I'm sorry. Clay Turnbull. I live in Townshend and 7
it's been a long time since I said and I proudly live 8
in a solar powered home for twenty-five years, off 9
grid.
10 And why not see if we can do the job here 11 of decommissioning? Can it be done? Can it be done 12 while honoring the commitments that Entergy has 13 already made to the State of Vermont?
14 We're presented with one option is let it 15 rust. The other option is to wait sixty years.
16 Another option is let's rush into this and get it --
17 let's -- we need to do this now. It's got to be done 18 by the end of the month, you know, make your decisions 19 right away, the rush or rust option. Or another 20 option is you can have a greenfield. Sixty years from 21 now, Entergy is going to honor their commitments.
22 They're not going to rubblize. You're going to have 23 a really beautiful site in sixty years or so; 24 decommissioning will be done. Or you can get a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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119 brownfield and we'll do it now.
1 And it's -- and it's -- we're given these 2
-- these greenfield or brownfield or rush-or-rust 3
options. What if we all have the goal of making that 4
site just as clean as possible, at least as clean as 5
Maine Yankee, so that we can all look back and not too 6
far down the road it would be -- really wonderful to 7
have that site decommissioned and ten years from now 8
be saying what a great job we did. So I say how about 9
we start with -- with that as a goal in mind.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thanks, Clay.
12 After Gary, we're going to have R.T. Brown 13 and then Lorie Cartwright.
14 MR. SACH: Thanks for coming up, NRC.
15 Mr. State, I'm a little bit -- I haven't 16 been to these meetings, many of them, because I was 17 undergoing chemotherapy. And I would -- I remembered 18 Chairman Yeskel of the NRC came and met with the 19 activists a few years ago. I sure would like to meet 20 Mr. State to get some answers questioned because it 21 seems like this whole thing that's based on 22 proprietary data.
23 You know, if Entergy -- I mean, I'm sorry, 24 NorthStar, Entergy, they're so close to each other.
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120 If NorthStar disappears 2028, let's say, 1
what do we do? Go back to proprietary information?
2 I don't see how that works. I'd like to understand 3
more. Mr. Marinello -- Kyle Landis-Marinello spoke 4
about that line item piece in the original. And I 5
didn't see that in the current P.S.D.A.R.. But 6
needless to say, I haven't started.
7 2007, the World Business Academy wrote if 8
private investors won't buy into nuclear, why should 9
the public? In 2007, Entergy tried to spin off its 10 reactors into a company called SpinCo. In 2009, 11 Entergy officials were found to have misspoken.
12 Punishment was minimal, financial or not at all. What 13 happened is that Entergy, after the misspeaking of 14 2009, promised to be honest and forthcoming. Then it 15 shut down.
16 How sad that we, here in Vermont, never 17 got the chance to believe or experience Entergy making 18 good on their promises to be honest and forthright 19 with us. However, they have come up at Election Day, 20 this past year, hey, we found somebody to buy our 21 reactor. Where the heck with NorthStar when Entergy 22 was trying to sell the reactor for all those years?
23 How come you didn't buy in then? What is this crap 24 now?
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121 I mean, so in Election Day 2016, Entergy 1
made -- I mean, found a buyer. Here's NorthStar. Is 2
Entergy hiding responsibility for its poor purchase 3
decisions? Where was NorthStar when Entergy had the 4
reactor on sale? What insurance does the NRC have 5
that Mr. State can provide that there are no potential 6
liens into him for perhaps millions of dollars from 7
previous court cases or endeavors? I'd like to know 8
that before this happens.
9 Areva is being bailed out by the French 10 government. W.C.S. is already involved here, per the 11 compact. So to have them as part as -- of this 12 NorthStar is kind of redundant. But Burns and 13 McDonnell's always good to get a discount.
14 Okay. I perceived the D.U.I. settlement 15 agreement as an ultimatum. If it wasn't accepted 16 verbatim, it would not have been approved. It would 17 not have been passed into law. That's not a 18 negotiation. That's an ultimatum.
19 The -- this P.S.D.A.R. means very little 20 in a sense because the NRC doesn't approve it. It's 21 simply that NorthStar has to do it. It's like there's 22 a box they have to check off between here and the 23 decision.
24 Is there an ISFSI pad being built right 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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122 now? It started in April as per the --
1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Off mic) 2 MR. SACH: Great. Good.
3 I believe this NorthStar deal is to --
4 well, I'll leave that for the last.
5 Okay. Vernon has been pro-V.Y. for forty-6 two years. Can we let them have the waste? I mean, 7
many of the Vernon residents, I mean, no disrespect, 8
had said we'll take the dry casks. Let's let them 9
have some, not have to put it all on the concrete, 10 give it all to -- make you guys responsible.
11 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Gary, I'm going to ask 12 you --
13 MR. SACH: Wait, very quickly.
14 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Okay.
15 MR. SACH: I've got two things.
16 I need a picture from you guys, either 17 Entergy or NorthStar, how much of that site is going 18 to be visible or going to be usable for people? One-19 hundred-twenty-five-acre site. Maine Yankee has a lot 20 of site that's not accessible because of the ISFSI.
21 Can we get a picture?
22 Would you guys like to see a picture to 23 see if there's actually going to be a recreational 24 area? Have you seen it?
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123 A project -- a projected picture of what 1
it would look like, have you seen it, Panel? No.
2 Thank you. I'd like to see that prior to whatever 3
transfer occurs. I'd like Mr. State to be more 4
forthcoming. I know, I'm sorry, I was going through 5
cancer, but I give you guys responsibility. I think 6
this entire deal is to line Mr. State's pocket.
7 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
8 R.T. Brown and then Lorie Cartwright. And 9
then we're going to have Rich Holschuh next, after 10 them.
11 MR. BROWN: Hi. Good evening. Thank you 12 to the Panel, the NRC, and to NorthStar for being here 13 tonight. I've timed myself to a minute and a half.
14 Let's see if I can achieve this.
15 Closer. Good evening. My name is R.T.
16 Brown. I work for the Brattleboro Development Credit 17 Corporation and I'm the Windham County Economic 18 Development Programs Project Manager. I also 19 administer some programs related to entrepreneurship 20 and innovation in the region.
21 The B.D.C.C. is one of twelve regional 22 development corporations throughout the state and we 23 serve the Windham region. Our sister entity, the 24 Southeastern Vermont Economic Development Strategies, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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124 developed the region's CEDS, or Comprehensive Economic 1
Development Strategy. It's essentially a road map for 2
the region -- or economic development road map.
3 My academic and professional background is 4
in applied economics as it relates to local and 5
regional development.
6 We entirely support the expedited process 7
as proposed by NorthStar as an accelerated timeline by 8
decades poses many opportunities for the community in 9
the region. Due to the accelerated timeline and 10 speaking from their perspective of regional economic 11 development entity, it should be noted that this --
12 this place has a greater pressure on the Town of 13
- Vernon, which has very limited resources, to 14 sufficiently and clearly plan and develop the best 15 possible long-term reuse of the site.
16 There is an opportunity here to think 17 about Vernon's infrastructure and what -- what can be 18 done to provide the greatest possible long-term 19 economic impact for what has been a very supportive 20 rural host community. I think it was said very well 21 in the last P.S.B. meeting by someone -- and my 22 apologies, I don't -- I don't know their name.
23 But essentially the idea is that NorthStar 24 has a tremendous opportunity to show their leadership 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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125 in this field that is only going to grow. We 1
encourage the parties here to put the community first 2
and do everything possible to not simply meet 3
expectations, but exceed them in ways that exhibit 4
innovation, thoughtfulness, and leadership as the next 5
chapter of nuclear power generationers is written 6
starting in Vernon, Vermont. Thank you.
7 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, R.T.
8 Lorie Cartwright and then after Rich, it's 9
going to be Peter Vanderdoes.
10 MS. CARTWRIGHT: I apologize, I wasn't 11 closer. It happened faster than I expected.
12 I am Lorie Cartwright and I am from 13 Brattleboro, Vermont. I would also like to take this 14 chance to thank the Nuclear Regulatory Commission for 15 coming to Brattleboro to speak to us and to hear us.
16 As a taxpayer, a citizen of this great 17 state and nation, a mother, and a fierce proponent of 18 truly renewable energy, solar, wind, and hydro, I 19 would like nothing more than to see this site be 20 cleaned up as expeditiously and safely as possible, 21 especially if it paves the way for the site to be made 22 available for the production of such truly renewable 23 forms of energy. It would be a boon to the local 24 economy.
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126 It seems that what divides some of the 1
people that we've heard from tonight from Vernon, from 2
some of the other people we've heard from tonight, is 3
this notion of having the site be released on an 4
unrestricted basis. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission 5
representatives outlined what some of the 6
decommissioned sites look like. But I wish that when 7
I'm done with my comment, they would just go over that 8
point again because I was always under the conception 9
that there aren't any former commercial reactor sites 10 that have been unrestricted. And that would include 11 the entire site of the former commercial reactor.
12 So if -- if somebody from the NRC could 13 articulate that for us again at the end of my comment 14 period, I would -- I would really appreciate it.
15 I do, again, think that that is the deep 16 divide. And for something this important, I think 17 that, frankly, I don't see there being anything more 18 important facing this world right now than the 19 cleaning up of nuclear power plant sites and the 20 storage of the high level, medium level, low level, 21 any level radiated waste. It's the most critical 22 issue for all of us.
23 So if we could have a better understanding 24 about the real feasibility of seeing that site cleaned 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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127 up and redeveloped in our lifetimes, I think that that 1
would be really helpful for everyone here to get 2
closer to what it is that they want at the end of 3
this.
4 I do have concerns about some of the ways 5
that the proposed purchaser is going to want to go 6
about cleaning up the site, and I won't spend a lot of 7
time talking about it. I apologize. I'm just -- I'm 8
really emotional about this because, like I said, I 9
can't consider anything more important to us than 10 this.
11 But rubblization is a concern; that is 12 diluting the pollution.
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Lorie, I'm going to have 14 to ask you to wrap it up.
15 MS. CARTWRIGHT: Okay. Okay. And then I 16 just -- I do want to say that it was great concern to 17 me that one of the representatives from NorthStar 18 suggested that they saw this sort of a clean-up the 19 same as any other site, that the fact that it was a 20 radioactive site really didn't make that much of a 21 difference to them. I think that that makes all of 22 the difference in the world.
23 Thank you.
24 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Lorie.
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128 There was a question, I think, to the NRC.
1 MR. WATSON: Yes, let me go ahead and 2
follow up on that. The sites that had been 3
decommissioned, all ten of them have been released for 4
unrestricted use, meaning the owner can do what they 5
want to on them. A few of them that which the fuel 6
was removed completely before by the -- the fuel was 7
removed by the Department of Energy are fully open to 8
any redevelopment that they want to. That would 9
include Shoreham, Pathfinder, Saxton.
10 About one-third have become parks or some 11 other use, like Maine Yankee. I mentioned that one 12 before. There are a number of plants where they had 13 built additional fossil units. At Rancho Seco, they 14 have two combined fossil units, combined cycle, they 15 use gas or whatever fuel they want to use. At 16 Humboldt Bay, they have ten combustion units which 17 they use for stabilizing the grid in Northern 18 California.
19 And at La Crosse -- both Humboldt Bay and 20 La Crosse right now are undergoing decommissioning, 21 but La Cross has a large coal powered plant right next 22 to the nuclear plant. So the sites can be reused for 23 a variety of purposes. It's really up to the owner.
24 MS. CARTWRIGHT: If I may, just a point of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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129 clarification, sir, thank you. The sites where the 1
fuel has not been
- removed, are those fully 2
unrestricted sites.
3 MR. WATSON: Yes, except for the fuel 4
facility -- the storage facility.
5 MS. CARTWRIGHT: Okay. Thank you.
6 MR. WATSON: Uh-huh.
7 CHAIR O'CONNOR: It's your turn, Rich.
8 MR. HOLSCHUH: (Foreign language spoken) 9 My name is Rich and I'm from this place, namely 10 Brattleboro. I serve on the Vermont Commission for 11 Native American Affairs. I work with the contemporary 12 Native community in the State of Vermont. I'm here as 13 spokesperson for the Elnu Abenaki Tribe, with the 14 backing of the Nulhegan and the Koasek.
15 Thank you for traveling here to the Land 16 of the People Separated, the southwestern most part of 17 Ndakinna, the Abenaki homeland.
18 As indigenous people, our concern is both 19 for the land and the people for they are the same. I 20 would like to open with a short perspective of how we 21 see this situation. You may not have heard this 22 before. I don't know. But I'd like to make three 23 brief comments, not questions just comments.
24 This -- tonight, this gathering is the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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130 latest step in a story that has been unfolding for 1
less than fifty years, blink of an eye. The spiritual 2
beliefs of the indigenous people tell us that time is 3
a whole, not a linear progression. We are all part of 4
the same. There is no separation from anyone or 5
anything else, no matter the time or the shape, only 6
a relationship in a different way of being in the 7
world.
8 Energy and matter are conserved, basic 9
physics. Everything matters. The past is always with 10 us and the future is now. We have a great 11 responsibility as Native people and hopefully as human 12 beings to honor these relationships and conduct 13 ourselves in a matter befitting our role in creation.
14 But now we have some new strange things, 15 things that have never been here before. Things that 16 we can't see, but they're still real. Radionuclides, 17 they're not a part of natural law. They have never 18 been here before in these quantities. They're 19 antithetical to life itself. They don't fit. They're 20 not part of the story, a story that's been going on 21 for millennia.
22 But yet, here they are. Somebody made a 23 decision to step outside of relationship and now we 24 have to live with it. The deliberations of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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131 moment, today, the next few weeks, years, will be with 1
us for hundreds and thousands of years. Seems like a 2
long time and it is.
3 I ask you to remember that the Abenaki and 4
their ancestors have been in this land, the land where 5
Vermont Yankee sits, for twelve thousand years.
6 That's a long time. They've been flourishing 7
sustainably within the relationship. And with 8
thankfulness, we are still here. (language other than 9
English) as we say in our language. And we want to 10 honor this place, our homeland. We want the future 11 generations to be able to give thanks in the same 12 manner and enjoy these gifts, as well.
13 We ask that you make these decisions 14 regarding the disposition of this great incongruity 15 carefully. It affects everyone and everything. So 16 I'd like to make three short comments.
17 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Rich, they do have to be 18 short.
19 MR. HOLSCHUH: Okay. These are with 20 respect to the P.S.D.A.R. Vermont Yankee sits on an 21 ancient gathering place, a place for settlement, 22 gathering, fishing, working the land, performing 23 ceremony, and a final resting place when it came time 24 to walk on. The cultural significance of the site has 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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132 never been fully acknowledged.
1 I don't know if everybody knows this, but 2
that's the case. NorthStar should know this. The 3
original 1972 Atomic Energy Commission license for the 4
plant makes it very clear, stating, quote, no formal 5
archaeological survey was conducted at Vermont Yankee 6
Nuclear Power Station prior to initial construction.
7 And yet, for one example, historic newspaper accounts 8
record the unearthing of multiple indigenous burials 9
in the immediate area for the two hundred years 10 immediately preceding the facility.
11 I'll leave it at that. This needs to be 12 on the record.
13 The P.S.D.A.R. and the revised P.S.D.A.R.
14 merely quote the license that came before, and it's 15 all made up. It's a myth.
16 Second point. Environmental review 17 procedures that have been put in place at Vermont 18 Yankee Nuclear Power Station regarding undertakings 19 that involve land disturbing activities, this is 20 beyond decommissioning, undisturbed areas, require a 21 notification procedure involving the State Historic 22 Preservation Officer to establish the -- actions 23 necessary to protect known or undiscovered cultural 24 resources.
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133 This is going to carry through in site 1
restoration, as well. There is going to be a lot of 2
staging areas, a lot of storage areas beyond the 3
plant, itself. We request the tribes be included in 4
these procedures, going forward, and the protocols 5
that will accompany them.
6 And the last point, environmental justice, 7
Executive Order 12898 from 1994 directs Federal 8
executive agencies to consider environmental justice 9
under the National Environmental Policy Act. It is 10 designed to ensure low income and -- minority 11 populations do not experience a disproportionately 12 high and adverse human health or environmental 13 effects.
14 Now we all know where the nuclear waste 15 sites are. They are settled -- they are set in areas 16 with marginalized, usually indigenous people. While 17 you're considering how this is going to take place and 18 where these things are going to go, we want you to 19 know that we stand with these people, we ask that you 20 consider their lives equally and fairly as your 21 responsibility.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you.
24 Peter Vanderdoes, and then Nancy Braus.
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134 MR. VANDERDOES: I think Nancy Braus has 1
left us.
2 Peter Vanderdoes from Brattleboro. First, 3
I'd like to thank Ms. O'Connor for her very concise 4
and intelligent question. Who will be left holding 5
the bag? And Senator MacDonald's point that the 6
people holding the bag will have empty pockets.
7 Mr. Leach, who was here earlier and spoke 8
so eloquently of Areva, I would like to point out some 9
of their shortcomings in cost and time overrides. The 10 Flamanville Nuclear plant in France, which began 11 construction in 2007, was supposed to be finished in 12 2012, is still under construction today.
13 Initially, it was estimated at three point 14 five billion euros, but the cost has ballooned to ten 15 point five billion euros.
16 Another point is the Olkiluoto Nuclear 17 Power Plant in Finland, which Areva was working on, 18 was due to be finished in 2009. It is also still 19 under construction. And the initial cost has gone up 20 from three point five billion euros to eight billion 21 euros. The Finnish Electrical Utility, T.V.O., is 22 taking Areva to court.
23 I
had a
whole bunch of financial 24 information, which I was going to go through, but it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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135 was very lengthy. So I decided just to point out to 1
the Nuclear Regulatory Commission 10 C.F.R. 50.38, the 2
ineligibility of certain applicants. Any person who 3
is a citizen, national, or agent of a foreign country 4
or any corporation or other entity which the 5
Commission knows to be owned, controlled, or dominated 6
by an alien foreign corporation or foreign government, 7
shall be ineligible to apply for or obtain a license.
8 So I know that that's sort of pushed under 9
the rug because Areva has done a lot of work in the 10 United States. But I'm wondering why shouldn't an 11 American Corporation be doing that work? We need the 12 jobs.
13 Thanks very much.
14 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Peter.
15 Nancy Braus appears to have left the 16 building.
17 Is there anyone else who hasn't signed up 18 or I've missed you that would like to make a comment?
19 Yes, please come to the microphone.
20 MS. BURNETT: My name is Audrey Burnett.
21 I'm a member of the Vermont Yankee Decommissioning 22 Alliance. I understand that NorthStar is partnering 23 with the Texas-based W.C.S., to send our high-level 24 nuclear waste to a community in Andrews County, Texas.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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136 Our group, along with other citizen-based groups, 1
recently sponsored residents from Andrews County who 2
are very opposed to receiving our high-level nuclear 3
waste.
4 They are concerned that although they are 5
told this is interim storage, there is presently no 6
safe long-term plans for high-level nuclear waste 7
storage. They're concerned about environmental 8
impacts or potential terrorist attacks on this waste.
9 I mean, this is where they live and where they're 10 raising their children. They say that they had no 11 nuclear power plants and yet they're hosting our 12 waste.
13 I'd like everyone to consider what's being 14 proposed and the people that will be affected by our 15 poisonous waste for possibly generations to come.
16 Thank you.
17 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you very much.
18 Is there anyone else who hasn't made a 19 comment, but would like to? Yes, please come to the 20 microphone.
21 MR. ZALUZNY: Hi. Steve Zaluzny, resident 22 of Vernon, Vermont. Just quick, a little bit of 23 history. My father was a selectperson for years in 24 Vernon. He was there when they built the plant, along 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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137 with other select people, obviously. Spent a lot of 1
time and had a lot of late night meetings, one or two 2
o'clock in the morning, to deal with the nuclear power 3
plant coming to town.
4 So I don't want to bore you with too much 5
of that. But one of the promises that was made, 6
obviously and I don't know all the background or the 7
paperwork or the legal documents, but the people of 8
Vernon were promised that the nuclear waste would be 9
removed once the plant was shut down. So that 10 obviously has become an issue.
11 The -- the A.G. mentioned that, you know, 12 what -- what will happen after a certain year, fifty-13 two, or whatever as far as cost. And I guess before 14 I get done maybe that's the question I'd like 15 answered, you know, and who pays that cost of material 16 on-site as it goes beyond a certain point?
17 And then I want to speak a little bit 18 about just the idea of, you know, I'm a small 19 contractor, obviously, but certain things are also 20 relevant, small or big, as far as construction 21 contracts. One of the things, you know, if you're 22 doing a bonded job, obviously a bond sounds like a 23 good thing and it can be. But if there's any 24 disputes, a bond could be contested and then you're in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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138 a legal situation trying to deal with it.
1 I guess, my comments in regard to a 2
contract are obviously up front you need to know what 3
the costs are. Okay? That's critical especially in 4
this case. So whoever we're going to trust, Public 5
Service or the NRC or whoever it is, we need to know 6
what the costs are accurately before the contract is 7
signed and the work is done.
8 Once that is established, a schedule of 9
values has to be set. That is basically what the cost 10 of each segment of the job will be.
11 Once the work proceeds, it is critical 12 that the contractor is paid accordingly to what work 13 is done as far as its value. If a contractor would be 14 overpaid, that's not a good situation. So that is why 15 whoever will oversee this is able to measure the work 16 that's done and that it's done properly. That way, if 17 a contractor defaults, there's still enough money left 18 to finish the work. So that is also critical.
19 So I think that's really important to any 20 contract. Obviously, this has nuclear waste involved, 21 but these requirements are -- are still relevant for 22 any contract. And I think that's what I, as a 23 resident of Vernon, want my government to do in this 24 situation, that they scrutinize and make sure that the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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139 contract is followed. And that's really going to make 1
this work. Whether it's done over six years or sixty 2
years that still has to happen to this -- for this to 3
work.
4 So now again to my question on storage, 5
whoever should try to answer that as far as cost and 6
who pays the cost of storage if it were -- if we don't 7
have a place to put nuclear waste, you know, in -- you 8
know, in the time span we're hoping that will happen.
9 MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I recognize your concern 10 about spent fuel. And I want to remind everyone in 11 this room that we do not make policy as to what is 12 going to be the disposition of spent fuel. The 13 Nuclear Regulatory Commission only maintains that they 14 be held safely, securely, and all the other issues.
15 I can tell you that there's going to be 16 some point where if there is no resolution found for 17 spent fuel, there will be additional costs. But a lot 18 of things will have to transpire between now and then.
19 This is not something that's going to happen 20 overnight.
21 There is sufficient funding right now, 22 under the guidance given by the Department of Energy 23
-- and I grant you that the Department of Energy has 24 not had a very good track record as to what their 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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140 promises are or not. That's a fact. But there will 1
become a point, and I'm not going to deny it, that 2
sometime -- sometime, additional funding will have to 3
be found.
4 The problem that we're going to be having 5
is that they're not going to be necessarily popular 6
answers. The licensee would still be held responsible 7
for all costs because the license for the ISFSI or the 8
dry cask storage is not terminated until such time 9
that the fuel is removed.
10 So I cannot sit here and tell you what the 11 costs are to an infinite time. There's very little 12 way that I could do that for you. All I can say is 13 that if it's going to happen, the licensee will be 14 responsible for the cost.
15 Now, an added point to this, many of the 16 licensees have been suing the Department of Energy to 17 reclaim some of these costs, and they have been 18 winning in court. There's also been, unfortunately, 19 not necessarily a very good payment on these 20 judgments.
21 I don't have answers to what's going on 22 with the Department of Energy. All I can tell you is 23 that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission does not make 24 that policy. So one way or the other, as we've been 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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141 talking about throughout the evening, the licensee is 1
responsible for the costs until the license is 2
terminated completely.
3 MR. ZALUZNY: Okay. Thank you very much.
4 I appreciate your answer.
5 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you. I think there 6
was one more person who wanted to comment? Yes?
7 MS. OLSON: I was reluctant to come up 8
because I --.
9 CHAIR O'CONNOR: You have to introduce 10 yourself.
11 MS. OLSON: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Tina 12 Olson. And I live in Brattleboro. I came here from 13 New York City. I've been here three years. I grew up 14 in Massachusetts. But I belong here. This is --
15 these are my people. This is my land. I love the 16 Connecticut River. And I'm a music therapist and so 17 of all the details that is involved here I don't know 18 much.
19 But what I hear is that we share a future.
20 And I think, probably deep down, all of us love the 21 land. So it seems to me, after listening, this comes 22 down to a commitment to do the absolute best to save 23 the land and ourselves and the future.
24 And I also understand that there really 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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142 isn't a satisfactory way to store this terrible --
1 curse in a way. So -- and I felt like I do need to 2
say something in honor of our democracy. And I 3
appreciate all of us here together, which I think deep 4
down we share the same desire and that we can come 5
together and hear each other so.
6 I don't normally do this, but I felt that 7
I need to speak. And I think all I can say is let us 8
do the best we can in a way, even if it is the most 9
expensive, and even if it takes a long time because we 10 do love the land and our people. Thank you.
11 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you very much.
12 Is there anyone else in the public that 13 wants to make a comment or has a question? All right.
14 Thank you so much.
15 I want to thank -- we're not done the 16 meeting. But I want to thank the public for coming 17 this evening. I think it was important and it was 18 because of the public that we asked the NRC to come 19 here this evening. So I want to thank all of you for 20 showing up. And it's -- I think it's very instructive 21 for us as a Panel to hear what -- what you're thinking 22 and what your thoughts and concerns are because that's 23 part of what we -- we like to know, as well.
24 Just a little bit of housekeeping, if you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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143 want to make a comment and you didn't want to do it in 1
this forum or you go home tonight and you think of 2
something that you want to say, the NRC is accepting 3
comments on the license transfer until June 23rd. And 4
again, you can go on the NRC website or what we'll be 5
doing is emailing you out --.
6 MR. PARROTT: Kate, could I -- this is 7
Jack Parrott over here in NRC --
8 Could I elaborate on that?
9 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yes -- yes.
10 MR. PARROTT: -- public comment part?
11 Yesterday, we published our Federal 12 Register notice that it offers that opportunity. And 13 I just want to make sure you know that it's -- the 14 website to do that is W W W dot regulations dot gov.
15 And you use the docket number NRC dash 2017 dash zero 16 one two five. And all that information is in the 17 Federal Register notice.
18 I don't know if it's -- if it's possible 19 if you could put that Federal Register notice, maybe, 20 on your website, it might make it easier for people to 21 find information.
22 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Yes, we will. We'll put 23 that on this -- our Panel has a site on the State of 24 Vermont's website, located on the Public Service 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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144 Department site. And what we'll do is we'll make sure 1
that that link is on it. And I'll make sure that we 2
email out to everybody what that email address is and 3
what the link is. So we'll push the information out 4
as much as we can so that everybody has that 5
information.
6 There was a question earlier about where 7
people can find the slides from tonight's 8
presentations. And there are two places. Entergy has 9
a website, V Y decommissioning dot com. And again, 10 it's also on the State of Vermont's Public Service 11 Department website. And the Nuclear Decommissioning 12 Citizens Advisory Panel has our own site there. So if 13 you're looking for that, you can find it.
14 The meeting will be re-broadcast on 15 B.C.T.V., if you want to watch it on your television 16 or you can see it any time online. So anything you 17 wanted, you can rewatch the meeting at two in the 18 morning if you -- if you have nothing else to do and 19 you can't sleep.
20 I want to thank -- before we -- before we 21 do a little bit more housekeeping on the Panel, I do 22 want to thank the representatives from the NRC for 23 coming. And I want to thank Scott State and Mike 24 Twomey for coming. We appreciate it very much.
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145 And I think somebody said this may be the 1
last time we ever see the NRC. And I don't think 2
that's true because there are other issues that are 3
going to be coming up. And I had a conversation with 4
them, prior to this meeting, and there may be other 5
reasons for them to come up and fill us in on what's 6
going on. So we -- we appreciate that offer, as well.
7 The next NDCAP meeting is, at this point, 8
scheduled for June 22nd. We have confirmed that 9
representatives from Holtec, they are the company that 10 is doing the transferring of the fuel from the spent 11 fuel pool, to the second dry cask storage pad. They 12 have confirmed that they will be coming to the 13 meeting.
14 We also have confirmation that 15 representatives from Areva, which is one of the 16 partners with NorthStar, will be coming to the 17 meeting. There is a chance, based on everybody's 18 schedule, we're dealing with a lot of people, that 19 that meeting may be pushed back a week. And this is 20 news to some people in the room here, so I apologize 21 for springing it on you.
22 So I'm going to be sending an email out to 23 the Panel and to all the people that are impacted if 24 we change the date and see if that's a changeable date 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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146 or not. And what we do for all of you here is we post 1
all the information, the days and times and places of 2
our meetings, again on the State of Vermont website.
3 And we also email it out so we get it out as much as 4
possible.
5 So tentatively, put June 22nd, but it may 6
be bumped back a week, depending on the logistics of 7
doing that.
8 I don't know if anyone else on the Panel 9
wants to say anything before we adjourn our meeting?
10 No? Everybody is going no. So again, I want to --.
11 SENATOR MACDONALD: I'm sorry. Say that 12 again, Madam Chair?
13 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Does anyone want to say 14 anything before we adjourn the meeting? Oh, yes, we 15 got to give you a microphone, Senator.
16 SENATOR MACDONALD: Madam Chair, public 17 policy and decisions of this sort are best made when 18 there are clear rules of what happens in the future.
19 And the NRC's job or the Congress' job is to make it 20 clear who is responsible if such -- if this goes 21 forward.
22 Many of us, including myself, would like 23 to see the money spent sooner, rather than later. But 24 if the NRC is not telling us who's responsible if a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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147 good faith project comes up short and the answer is 1
we'll find out when it happens, what use is the NRC?
2 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Does anyone else on the 3
Panel want to make a comment?
4 Yes, Steve?
5 MR. SKIBNIOWSKY: Steve Skibniowsky here.
6 I'd like to just certainly thank all the 7
panelists and NRC. that are here this evening. But I 8
would also like to remind the panelists that during 9
the presentations, during the public comments and so 10 forth, it would be most courteous to refrain from 11 talking and essentially ignoring what the individuals 12 are saying, until they're finished speaking.
13 And I think it's a matter of common 14 curtesy in a public forum like this and I would like 15 to remind all of my fellow panelists that that, at 16 least, is the type of protocol that I'm familiar with 17 and would certainly support in the future.
18 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you, Steve.
19 Any other comments or questions from 20 anyone on the Panel?
21 All right. Again, thank you all for 22 coming.
23 David Andrews has made the motion to 24 adjourn. Does anyone second that motion?
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148 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.
1 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Everybody seconds that 2
motion.
3 All those in favor?
4 THE PANEL: Aye.
5 CHAIR O'CONNOR: Thank you. We're 6
adjourning and thank you so much, everyone, for 7
coming.
8 (The meeting adjourned at 9:36 p.m.)
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